"It is time for America to lead again"

Immanuel

Immanuel

Junior Member
President Obama just made this statement.

This thread is not started as a anti Obama thread, but I expect it will probably turn into that. I'd like to ask the supporters of the President how this can be done if the heart and soul of America is ripped from it?

What I mean is that in my opinion the entrepreneurial spirit is what has made America so great, yet as I listen to the President speak what I hear is "let the government do it for you". I'm not saying that is what he is saying, but that is what I am hearing. So much of what he has pushed in the last month are steps towards the killing of that spirit. The health insurance issue is exactly what I am speaking of.

The way I feel, is that the destruction of that Spirit is the destruction of America.

I know many of you feel differently.

I know you support the President and you see his ideas differently than I do. How will the entrepreneurial spirit thrive in an America that has the government do it all for us? Will it thrive? Should it?

How can we possibly lead again when Americans are robots?

Immie
 
I don't understand the perspective that hears every word he says as "the gov't is taking over."

He's talking about returning industry to America - keeping jobs here, and keeping IDEAS here; spearheading the next economic boom in alternative energy, in particular. He's right about healthcare; the costs are skyrocketing right now. There are massive inefficiences that technology can cure. The gov't is not going to "run" healthcare.

I don't know what you refer to that has "killed" the entrepeneurial spirit. Tax cuts for small businesses? Incentives to keep jobs in America? Stimulus for infrastructure that will provide business for manufacturers & producers throughout America?
 
Onceler said:
I don't understand the perspective that hears every word he says as "the gov't is taking over."

He's talking about returning industry to America - keeping jobs here, and keeping IDEAS here; spearheading the next economic boom in alternative energy, in particular. He's right about healthcare; the costs are skyrocketing right now. There are massive inefficiences that technology can cure. The gov't is not going to "run" healthcare.

I don't know what you refer to that has "killed" the entrepeneurial spirit. Tax cuts for small businesses? Incentives to keep jobs in America? Stimulus for infrastructure that will provide business for manufacturers & producers throughout America?
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It may simply be the way I am feeling right now. My job, the economy everything just seems so... dreary?

What do I mean by killing the entrepreneurial spirit? Nationalization of Health Insurance... Nationalization of the financial industry... what is next? I don't hear... keep jobs in America. I hear "let us protect you", just like George Bush said. I don't hear tax cuts for small business and I will believe that when I see it. I see the "stimulus" plan as being a hell of a lot of money spent that we don't have. I see it as causing severe inflation, higher interest rates and fewer jobs... yes, fewer jobs. I fear it will in the long run do exactly the opposite of what he hopes. Don't get me wrong... he had to do something... but drastically increasing spending? God help us if he is wrong!

He's killing entire industries like the health insurance industry... bye bye jobs! Are the people that lose their jobs from the insurance industry going to find jobs building roads and bridges?

Believe me, I am not attacking his statement. I'm trying to relay how I feel and get different perspectives from those who see it differently.

Let's put it this way... the way things are going at work lately, I sure as hell could use a different insight in where we are headed! :)

Immie
 
We're all worried; it's a trying, uncertain time.

It's all perspective. If the plan - which was around 35% tax cuts - works, than it is CHEAP, by comparison to inaction. The U.S. economy has lost many trillions since the fall. If all this plan does is turn the ship, it has saved much more than it costs.

It is dreary right now, but I am optimistic. I think we'll have a much better & more positive picture of the future by summer.
 
So what am I missing?

Why do I feel that what he is doing is killing the American Spirit?

Is it simply preconceived notions of governmental inefficiency? Is it simply a lack of trust of the leaders of our country? Is it simply fear on that dreaded word... socialism?

I simply cannot put a finger on it. It is not that I don't like or don't support the President. It is not that I want to be contra-Obama. But, every time I hear "we're (the government) going to fix your problems", I cringe.

I got up this morning wondering if I was going to have a job at closing time. I'm sitting here wondering about the same thing tomorrow.

I know the healthcare industry is in trouble and something has to be done. I've been saying that for at least four years, but when I read H.R. 676, all I could see was the destruction of the Health Insurance industry and the end of competitive health insurance. I've been saying for four years that nationalized healthcare was going to be required soon. Quite frankly, I can't see anyway around it. One of the reasons I fear for my job is the cost of Health Insurance. It is literally strangling the company I work for.

This is the kind of thing that causes me concern about the entrepreneurial spirit. Wiping out entire industries in one fell swoop. Why would the businessman even consider going in to business in an atmosphere where the government can come in and wipe you out tomorrow?

Immie
 
Immanuel said:
So what am I missing?

Why do I feel that what he is doing is killing the American Spirit?

Is it simply preconceived notions of governmental inefficiency? Is it simply a lack of trust of the leaders of our country? Is it simply fear on that dreaded word... socialism?

I simply cannot put a finger on it. It is not that I don't like or don't support the President. It is not that I want to be contra-Obama. But, every time I hear "we're (the government) going to fix your problems", I cringe.

I got up this morning wondering if I was going to have a job at closing time. I'm sitting here wondering about the same thing tomorrow.

I know the healthcare industry is in trouble and something has to be done. I've been saying that for at least four years, but when I read H.R. 676, all I could see was the destruction of the Health Insurance industry and the end of competitive health insurance. I've been saying for four years that nationalized healthcare was going to be required soon. Quite frankly, I can't see anyway around it. One of the reasons I fear for my job is the cost of Health Insurance. It is literally strangling the company I work for.

This is the kind of thing that causes me concern about the entrepreneurial spirit. Wiping out entire industries in one fell swoop. Why would the businessman even consider going in to business in an atmosphere where the government can come in and wipe you out tomorrow?

Immie
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You're just out of your fucking mind. That's really the only way I could explain your issues to you.
 
Immanuel said:
I see the "stimulus" plan as being a hell of a lot of money spent that we don't have. I see it as causing severe inflation, higher interest rates and fewer jobs...
Click to expand...

There is absolutely no chance of inflation, Immie. The current economic situation bears absolutely no resemblance to staglfation - none. In the great depression, the government spent and lowered interests rates a lot and still got -10% DEFLATION. That's what this depression resembles. Crying about inflation in the current crisis is like screaming "FIRE!" in Noah's flood.
 
Onceler said:
I don't understand the perspective that hears every word he says as "the gov't is taking over."

He's talking about returning industry to America - keeping jobs here, and keeping IDEAS here; spearheading the next economic boom in alternative energy, in particular. He's right about healthcare; the costs are skyrocketing right now. There are massive inefficiences that technology can cure. The gov't is not going to "run" healthcare.

I don't know what you refer to that has "killed" the entrepeneurial spirit. Tax cuts for small businesses? Incentives to keep jobs in America? Stimulus for infrastructure that will provide business for manufacturers & producers throughout America?
Click to expand...

I've always been a big believer in public works projects. Oh I know those on the far right are going to shudder in horror and bemoan about the evils of socialism but think about it.

The intercontinental rail roads, the panama canal, the interstate highway program and the space race have had immeasurable economic benefits for this nation.

I'm all for a public works program of the magnitude of these programs for finding and developing clean alternative energy sources to deliver us from our dependence on foreign oil.

If the tax payers invest in this program on a massive scale then Obama is right. You will see a leap in entreprenuership that we have not seen since the space race of the 60's.
 
Immanuel said:
So what am I missing?

Why do I feel that what he is doing is killing the American Spirit?

Is it simply preconceived notions of governmental inefficiency? Is it simply a lack of trust of the leaders of our country? Is it simply fear on that dreaded word... socialism?

I simply cannot put a finger on it. It is not that I don't like or don't support the President. It is not that I want to be contra-Obama. But, every time I hear "we're (the government) going to fix your problems", I cringe.

I got up this morning wondering if I was going to have a job at closing time. I'm sitting here wondering about the same thing tomorrow.

I know the healthcare industry is in trouble and something has to be done. I've been saying that for at least four years, but when I read H.R. 676, all I could see was the destruction of the Health Insurance industry and the end of competitive health insurance. I've been saying for four years that nationalized healthcare was going to be required soon. Quite frankly, I can't see anyway around it. One of the reasons I fear for my job is the cost of Health Insurance. It is literally strangling the company I work for.

This is the kind of thing that causes me concern about the entrepreneurial spirit. Wiping out entire industries in one fell swoop. Why would the businessman even consider going in to business in an atmosphere where the government can come in and wipe you out tomorrow?

Immie
Click to expand...
Because a business can make a lot of money. That's why! :)
 
America just led the world into recession.

I am not too sure people will be so eager to follow in the future, which will slow down our recovery quite a bit.
 
uscitizen said:
America just led the world into recession.

I am not too sure people will be so eager to follow in the future, which will slow down our recovery quite a bit.
Click to expand...

Well no one will follow if you don't lead. Just because people are skeptical and hesitant to follow our lead is a pretty miserable excuse not to lead.
 
Mottleydude said:
Well no one will follow if you don't lead. Just because people are skeptical and hesitant to follow our lead is a pretty miserable excuse not to lead.
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It also doesn't matter. If we again produce the best product, we will become the supplier.
 
This is going to work.

It worked in the past and will work again.

If we do it right the coutnry can make a shit load from selling our interests back to the open market.

80% of Americans are behind what Obama said last night. That in its self will give him the clout he needs to do the things hes about to do.

Cling to your fear itself if you have to but America is ready to scarafice and do the heavy lifting to help President O.
 
Watermark said:
There is absolutely no chance of inflation, Immie. The current economic situation bears absolutely no resemblance to staglfation - none. In the great depression, the government spent and lowered interests rates a lot and still got -10% DEFLATION. That's what this depression resembles. Crying about inflation in the current crisis is like screaming "FIRE!" in Noah's flood.
Click to expand...

When you throw $800 billion from nowhere into an economy, you are creating inflation. There will be inflation as a direct result of $800 billion that did not exist a month ago entering into the economy.

Immie
 
Topspin said:
IMMI sit back and watch playa

check into solar panel sales two years down the road you retard.
Click to expand...

Not much will change in two years in solar energy. What slight boost the industry gets from this spending bill will be here today, gone tomorrow and the solar dudes will be saying WTF happened to President Obama's promises.

Same thing will happen with the infrastructure rebuilding projects... here today, gone tomorrow. Unless of course, President Obama plans a re-enactment of the spending bill every year or so. And then what will our friend Desh have to say about exorbitant spending? She thought Bush was bad... just wait.

Immie
 
Immanuel said:
When you throw $800 billion from nowhere into an economy, you are creating inflation. There will be inflation as a direct result of $800 billion that did not exist a month ago entering into the economy.

Immie
Click to expand...

Firstly, 800 billion isn't going to be spent all at once.

Secondly, the deflationary spiral is so strong that I doubt even 0% interest rates and 800 billion in stimulus is sufficient to stop it. If we have inflation this and next year, it will be very low inflation.
 
Watermark said:
Firstly, 800 billion isn't going to be spent all at once.

Secondly, the deflationary spiral is so strong that I doubt even 0% interest rates and 800 billion in stimulus is sufficient to stop it. If we have inflation this and next year, it will be very low inflation.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your input, but I believe you are wrong. Then again, I won't claim to be able to predict the future either, so maybe I'm wrong.

First, that $800 billion won't be spent over night but it will be spent soon and I believe it will cause inflation and I don't think it will be modestly inflationary either. It is not going to just trickle into the economy.

Second, the spiral is bound to hit bottom sooner or later and when it does an inflationary period will begin. Duh! Captain Obvious here!. :)

This is simply too much money for the government to spend that it does not have and it is being spent in an apparently inefficient manner. These jobs that it will supposedly create are not going to be long term. If the contractors hire anyone to help with the contracts they receive, when the jobs are complete, those people will be right back on the unemployment line. Although, as I said in another thread, maybe the idea here is to add a trillion dollars every year or so? That might keep people employed longer. {gulp}

Immie
 
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