John Lame Deer

ThatOwlWoman said:
Because that didn't happen. On one hand, the idiot bimbo claims that the indigenous people were living a subsistence, caveman-type lifestyle. Then claims that they wasted tons of meat. That's not even logical.

If we were benevolent, we'd consider the possibility that she confused the game-herding/cliff-drives with the wanton waste of white hunters who rode the trains and stagecoaches, shot thousands upon thousands of bison, and then harvested the tongue, or a hide, or horns -- and left the rest to rot. A few photos from that time coming up. What better way to subdue a free people than to deprive them of their main source of food?
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I knew by third grade that whites were systematically wiping out the buffalo.


I have noticed a pivot on this thread from claiming Indians were morons to indians were environmental rapists.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Your hyperbole exposes that you've realized that you've lost the debate, since you persist in believing myths in order to excuse your racism. It is interesting that you blame the failure of Jamestown on the native people, when in reality it was a combination of things. From the Historic Jamestown's own site:
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Why wouldn't Indians defend their land against intruders? I'm sure the Indians had a cultural memory of the swath of destruction Hernando de Soto cut through the American south only a century earlier.

I don't think Indians are saints, but I believe it's a human right to defend yourself.
 
Cypress said:
I knew by third grade that whites were systematically wiping out the buffalo.


I have noticed a pivot on this thread from claiming Indians were morons to indians were environmental rapists.
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Trumpers never take responsibility for themselves or their culture. They always blame others.
 
Cypress said:
Why wouldn't Indians defend their land against intruders? I'm sure the Indians had a cultural memory of the swath of destruction Hernando de Soto cut through the American south only a century earlier.

I don't think Indians are saints, but I believe it's a human right to defend yourself.
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Only the ones directly impacted. There may have been stories passed around, but without mass communication tech or even writing, most Native American tribes would never have known about the Spanish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto#De_Soto's_exploration_of_North_America
Hernando de Soto (/də ˈsoʊtoʊ/;[4] Spanish: [eɾˈnando ðe ˈsoto]; c. 1500 – 21 May 1542) was a Spanish explorer and conquistador who was involved in expeditions in Nicaragua and the Yucatan Peninsula. He played an important role in Francisco Pizarro's conquest of the Inca Empire in Peru, but is best known for leading the first European expedition deep into the territory of the modern-day United States (through Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and most likely Arkansas). He is the first European documented as having crossed the Mississippi River.

800px-DeSoto_Map_HRoe_2008.jpg
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R.0f5212cb81f7be339e958bb6931af5bd
 
Doc Dutch said:
Only the ones directly impacted. There may have been stories passed around, but without mass communication tech or even writing, most Native American tribes would never have known about the Spanish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hernando_de_Soto#De_Soto's_exploration_of_North_America



R.0f5212cb81f7be339e958bb6931af5bd
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Indians had long distance trade networks, and I think a good assumption can be made that Indians in Virginia heard stories about the swath of destruction de soto cut across the Carolinas and Georgia


Cypress said:
De Soto versus the Mississippians

In 1539 near Tampa Bay in Florida, the Spanish explorer Hernando de Soto landed seven ships. He had hundreds of men, 237 horses, 200 pigs, and a three‑year permit from the Spanish crown to colonize. From 1539 to 1542, de Soto and his army made a wide arc through Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, Tennessee, Alabama, Arkansas, and down into Mississippi. They were searching for another empire like those of the Inca or Aztec. De Soto never found one, but he did find hundreds of cities with palisades, stately palaces, and astonishingly large populations. His expedition was a three‑year reign of terror on the people of North America.

De Soto's army arrived back in Mexico on September 10, 1543, with only 311 of the 620 who landed in Florida four years earlier. De Soto’s army had seen hundreds of proud cities within a patchwork of Mississippian kingdoms. Collectively, they represented a civilization of millions of people, but they would never be the same. De Soto’s path of destruction had a huge impact. When Spaniards returned to all the places de Soto had been just decades later, they were decimated. Kingdoms like Cofitachequi and Atahachi were gone, replaced with people with no central leadership, struggling to farm around overgrown ruins of palaces. Some kingdoms survived longer than others. The Apalachee persisted for another 150 years until English colonists wiped them out, but all kingdoms were affected. To a degree, one of the reasons researchers have trouble connecting modern tribes to their ancestors is because de Soto wiped them out.

source: Professor Edwin Barnhart, Ph.D. Maya Exploration Center
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Cypress said:
Indians had long distance trade networks, and I think a good assumption can be made that Indians in Virginia heard stories about the swath of destruction de soto cut across the Carolinas and Georgia
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Interesting how De Soto was assisted by some tribes to decimate others.

https://www.nps.gov/ocmu/learn/historyculture/hernando-de-soto.htm
One native guide, named Perico, told the Spanish to travel four days east to find gold. Local Indians warned de Soto that to the east he would risk starvation on a large patch of uninhabited land. De Soto, lured by the promise of finding gold, chose to follow Perico’s advice. Just as they had been warned, they found no people, food, or gold. The terrain was so desolate they derided it as the “the desert of Ocute.” On the fifth day, they reached the Savannah River, swollen from spring rains, making crossing treacherous. Mounted soldiers rode across, the water lapping at the horse stirrups and saddlebags. The foot soldiers linked arms in a human chain 30 to 40 feet long and slowly pulled themselves across the raging river. Exhausted but safe on the other side, they faced another crisis. They were running out of food. De Soto ordered everyone to move faster, increasing their pace from 17 to 30 miles a day. They encountered more flooded rivers and often had to halt to build barges in order to cross.

In late April the soldiers reached the location of present-day Columbia, South Carolina. They were hopelessly lost. An Indian war chief, Patofa, and his warriors accompanied the Spanish, but they were little help as guides. Their goal was to find and fight their enemies from a chiefdom called Cofitachequi – a place they had never been. The Indians were as lost as the Spanish. On April 25, a scout led the army to the village of Aymay on the outskirts of the immense Cofitachequi chiefdom that controlled most of what today is the eastern half of South Carolina, as well as parts of North Carolina. The war chief, Patofa, and his followers raided several villages, looted and desecrated temples, and killed and scalped their captives. Their lust for battle satisfied, the Indians left for home
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Cypress said:
Yes, human nature was in play. Some tribes thought they could team up with De Soto to eliminate their rivals.

That is also how Cortes succeeded in Mexico.
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Agreed. It also proves the Europeans only had better tech, not better morals. LOL

It also disproves the "Noble Savage" myth along with the ideas that it was the Euros who brought war, scalping and slaves to the Americas.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed. It also proves the Europeans only had better tech, not better morals. LOL

It also disproves the "Noble Savage" myth along with the ideas that it was the Euros who brought war, scalping and slaves to the Americas.
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A very predictable and sound strategy for imperialists.

Britain could have never taken over India if they hadn't skillfully taken advantage of rivalries between all the Indian princes and kingdoms
 
Cypress said:
A very predictable and sound strategy for imperialists.

Britain could have never taken over India if they hadn't skillfully taken advantage of rivalries between all the Indian princes and kingdoms
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Agreed. Human nature. No doubt both the Romans and Alexander did the same.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Agreed. Human nature. No doubt both the Romans and Alexander did the same.
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You are probably right.


I think Cortes only had about 500 men. Pizarro only had about 140.

The only reason the Aztec and Inca empires fell, is because Cortes convinced all the enemies of the Aztecs to make common cause with him, and Pizzaro had the good fortune of landing in Peru right in the middle of an Incan civil war.
 
Cypress said:
You are probably right.


I think Cortes only had about 500 men. Pizarro only had about 140.

The only reason the Aztec and Inca empires fell, is because Cortes convinced all the enemies of the Aztecs to make common cause with him, and Pizzaro had the good fortune of landing in Peru right in the middle of an Incan civil war.
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Good luck for the Conquistadors!
 
Cypress said:
Why wouldn't Indians defend their land against intruders? I'm sure the Indians had a cultural memory of the swath of destruction Hernando de Soto cut through the American south only a century earlier.

I don't think Indians are saints, but I believe it's a human right to defend yourself.
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Of course it is.

Absent any laws or government, what would WE do if some group of people showed up and squatted on our ancestral lands, and started taking our foods and cutting down the trees to make cabins and forts? Powhatan tried to help the settlers at first, and was shit on. BTW his daughter was Pocahontas. We all know what happened to HER.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Of course it is.

Absent any laws or government, what would WE do if some group of people showed up and squatted on our ancestral lands, and started taking our foods and cutting down the trees to make cabins and forts? Powhatan tried to help the settlers at first, and was shit on. BTW his daughter was Pocahontas. We all know what happened to HER.
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I'm sure if the the Iroquois landed in southwest England and set up shop on English lands, there would have been a response from the English.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Drunk-posting again. Going to have to start calling you Toxic II. :laugh:

No, your point was to denigrate an entire group of human beings because, for some reason, you think your own race is superior. It wasn't just your lies about indigenous ppl allegedly destroying the environment. You also stated that they are stupid, that they practiced cannibalism, contradictory lies about not doing much in the way of agriculture but then burning down entire forests for clear-cutting, and that the earliest humans caused the extinction of megafauna. All of these are false and you have been schooled. Now put on this pointy white hat and robe, and go stand in the corner.
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When you catch this sheet wearing MAGA trolls stepping on their own feet, they just cover their ears/eyes and repeat the SOS in various forms. Like their orange faced god, they never admit they are wrong ... facts and logic be damned in their minds.
 
Cypress said:
You are probably right.


I think Cortes only had about 500 men. Pizarro only had about 140.

The only reason the Aztec and Inca empires fell, is because Cortes convinced all the enemies of the Aztecs to make common cause with him, and Pizzaro had the good fortune of landing in Peru right in the middle of an Incan civil war.
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They believed Cortes to be a God so gave him anything he wanted.

The leader of the Aztecs was eventually murdered after the people realized what was going on.
 
Tinkerpeach said:
They believed Cortes to be a God so gave him anything he wanted.
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Urban legend. The fact that the Aztecs ultimately attacked and killed as many Spanish as they could indicates they did not consider Cortes an untouchable god.

The Mexica Didn’t Believe the Conquistadors Were Gods

The indigenous Mexica (Aztec) people were overwhelmed by a superior technological force ruthlessly used against them

The legend can be dated to 1552: Francisco López de Gómara was the first person to say that the Spaniards conquered Mexico because the conquistadors had been seen as gods by the indigenous people. López de Gómara had never been to Mexico, but he was chaplain and secretary to the retired Hernando Cortés, who had led the conquistadors.

Cortés own letters during the conquest make no mention of being mistaken for or interpreted as a god.

https://daily.jstor.org/the-mexica-didnt-believe-the-conquistadors-were-gods/
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Cypress said:
I'm sure if the the Iroquois landed in southwest England and set up shop on English lands, there would have been a response from the English.
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Agreed.

The same response the English gave the Spanish in the late 16th century and the Germans in the mid-20th century.
 
Tinkerpeach said:
That was after the damage was done however.
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None of the letters and correspondence Cortes himself wrote during the events of the invasion say that the Mexica thought or implied he was a god.

That is a huge oversight to forget writing about
 
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