Lost In The Noise

Cancel7

Banned
Herbert really nails something that I haven't seen get any attention. This is a tax raise for Americans of all income levels. If you get your health insurance from your employer, and if they are even partially paying for it - your taxes are going up, period. You may also lose your health care.

Why isn't anyone talking about this? This is a fucking disaster long term, and short term, fuck you, I'm not paying taxes on the half of my health insurance my company picks up. Most Americans have already had pay cuts when employers started forcing them to kick more and more in towards their coverage. Used to be SOP that the employer picked up the whole tab, you know. I know, I know, amnesia.

These pigs wont' stop until you have nothing. Nothing. If you're low to medium income, if you aren't making 200k, you are going to get fucked, period. Fucked. And you know what? If you vote for this, and you get it, and you can't afford food, and you and your kids lose their health care, I'm going to smile.

You are destroying this country. You and your kids, should get fucked first, and most.

McCain’s Radical Agenda
By BOB HERBERT
Talk about a shock to the system. Has anyone bothered to notice the radical changes that John McCain and Sarah Palin are planning for the nation’s health insurance system?

These are changes that will set in motion nothing less than the dismantling of the employer-based coverage that protects most American families.

A study coming out Tuesday from scholars at Columbia, Harvard, Purdue and Michigan projects that 20 million Americans who have employment-based health insurance would lose it under the McCain plan.

There is nothing secret about Senator McCain’s far-reaching proposals, but they haven’t gotten much attention because the chatter in this campaign has mostly been about nonsense — lipstick, celebrities and “Drill, baby, drill!”

For starters, the McCain health plan would treat employer-paid health benefits as income that employees would have to pay taxes on.

“It means your employer is going to have to make an estimate on how much the employer is paying for health insurance on your behalf, and you are going to have to pay taxes on that money,” said Sherry Glied, an economist who chairs the Department of Health Policy and Management at Columbia University’s Mailman School of Public Health.

Ms. Glied is one of the four scholars who have just completed an independent joint study of the plan. Their findings are being published on the Web site of the policy journal, Health Affairs.

According to the study: “The McCain plan will force millions of Americans into the weakest segment of the private insurance system — the nongroup market — where cost-sharing is high, covered services are limited and people will lose access to benefits they have now.”

The net effect of the plan, the study said, “almost certainly will be to increase family costs for medical care.”

Under the McCain plan (now the McCain-Palin plan) employees who continue to receive employer-paid health benefits would look at their pay stubs each week or each month and find that additional money had been withheld to cover the taxes on the value of their benefits.

While there might be less money in the paycheck, that would not be anything to worry about, according to Senator McCain. That’s because the government would be offering all taxpayers a refundable tax credit — $2,500 for a single worker and $5,000 per family — to be used “to help pay for your health care.”

You may think this is a good move or a bad one — but it’s a monumental change in the way health coverage would be provided to scores of millions of Americans. Why not more attention?

The whole idea of the McCain plan is to get families out of employer-paid health coverage and into the health insurance marketplace, where naked competition is supposed to take care of all ills. (We’re seeing in the Bear Stearns, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers and Merrill Lynch fiascos just how well the unfettered marketplace has been working.)

Taxing employer-paid health benefits is the first step in this transition, the equivalent of injecting poison into the system. It’s the beginning of the end.

When younger, healthier workers start seeing additional taxes taken out of their paychecks, some (perhaps many) will opt out of the employer-based plans — either to buy cheaper insurance on their own or to go without coverage.

That will leave employers with a pool of older, less healthy workers to cover. That coverage will necessarily be more expensive, which will encourage more and more employers to give up on the idea of providing coverage at all.

The upshot is that many more Americans — millions more — will find themselves on their own in the bewildering and often treacherous health insurance marketplace. As Senator McCain has said: “I believe the key to real reform is to restore control over our health care system to the patients themselves.”

Yet another radical element of McCain’s plan is his proposal to undermine state health insurance regulations by allowing consumers to buy insurance from sellers anywhere in the country. So a requirement in one state that insurers cover, for example, vaccinations, or annual physicals, or breast examinations, would essentially be meaningless.

In a refrain we’ve heard many times in recent years, Mr. McCain said he is committed to ridding the market of these “needless and costly” insurance regulations.

This entire McCain health insurance transformation is right out of the right-wing Republicans’ ideological playbook: fewer regulations; let the market decide; and send unsophisticated consumers into the crucible alone.

You would think that with some of the most venerable houses on Wall Street crumbling like sand castles right before our eyes, we’d be a little wary about spreading this toxic formula even further into the health care system.

But we’re not even paying much attention.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html?ref=opinion&pagewanted=print
 
This was being discussed around the office yesterday.

I cannot believe that he has not been nailed for this. Taxing income is fine, but forcing taxes on those of us who have company paid insurance is pitiful.

Hopefully this will become a hotter issue.
 
I can't stand to ready your posts. Every time you say something, you use speculation, and call it fact. Dupes go with you---I know better. I know the difference between speculation and fact.
 
I can't stand to ready your posts. Every time you say something, you use speculation, and call it fact. Dupes go with you---I know better. I know the difference between speculation and fact.

Please enlighten us.

This is part of McCain's tax plan. I understand that he cannot guaranteed pasage of it. But it shows a disturbing mindset, nonetheless.
 
This was being discussed around the office yesterday.

I cannot believe that he has not been nailed for this. Taxing income is fine, but forcing taxes on those of us who have company paid insurance is pitiful.

Hopefully this will become a hotter issue.

I hope it becomes an issue at all. This effects so many people, unlike Obama's plan to rescind the top tax cuts - those making 250k or over - and yet, that, is what is getting attention? I don't get it.
 
second place for board ditz is so far behind Darla it's not even funny. She might has well pulled that trash from Pelosi's training talking points for jilted woman.
 
Imputed Value Tax

This was one I heard about a while back. I don't know who was suggesting it.

The idea was to force a homeowner to pay tax on the difference between his monthly mortgage and what it would cost to lease the same amount of space in the same area.
 
Wow, well, I'll have to watch and see if this is really one of his plans. To me, it just makes me go right back to my old mindset. Republicans fuck up the current system, while Democrats clean it up with piss-poor government programs. Then libertarians like myself sit on the sidelines and bitch.
 
I hope it becomes an issue at all. This effects so many people, unlike Obama's plan to rescind the top tax cuts - those making 250k or over - and yet, that, is what is getting attention? I don't get it.

I admit to not having seen this. Could someone point me to the location in McCains plan that states this??? Thanks.
 
I admit to not having seen this. Could someone point me to the location in McCains plan that states this??? Thanks.

No. Google it. McCain has talked about it himself, and so have his spokespeople. If you think I am taking up my time by going to his website, and then reading through his entire health care proposal to get to this, you are out of your mind. You people need to inform yourselves. Seriously SF, no offense, but if you wanted to know? You’d know. So would Dave. What is he “watching” for??
 
Never mind... I took a look at factcheck and they also mention this... but they also provide the numbers for the plan....

http://www.factcheck.org/mccains_5000_promise.html

"The average annual premium costs for a family with employer-sponsored insurance (including both the employee's and employer's contribution) was $12,106 in 2007, and it was $4,479 for a single person, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. Annual premiums for nongroup coverage (i.e., individually purchased plans) vary widely, currently ranging from $1,163 to $5,090 for singles, and $2,325 to $9,201 for family coverage. "

Lets note a few interesting tidbits from the above.....

1) the range for those that are not a part of group plans is what??? oh yeah, the top end of the family range is LOWER than the AVERAGE rate in group plans. Gee I wonder why he wants to encourage people going to the individual plan. Note, it would encourage it, but it would not prevent people from the group plan. For singles, again, the top of the range on an individual plan is just over the AVERAGE rate under a group plan.

2) the tax rebate for families... even if their group plan coverage is twice the average... say at $24k... and the employer paid half.... they would get taxed on $12k which at the highest tax brackets would just under $5k. So in the highest tax bracket for a family paying twice the average... the McCain plan would break even.

3) So if the net result is a benefit to every group... why are we upset with this?
 
No. Google it. McCain has talked about it himself, and so have his spokespeople. If you think I am taking up my time by going to his website, and then reading through his entire health care proposal to get to this, you are out of your mind. You people need to inform yourselves. Seriously SF, no offense, but if you wanted to know? You’d know. So would Dave. What is he “watching” for??

actually, the reason I asked is that I DID read through his healthcare section on his website PRIOR to asking you for the info because it wasn't spelled out on his website.... and yes, that annoys me. It should be on there.

As for the rest of your comments... I am sorry that I do not know every single detail of every single thing McCain has stated. I am not all knowing like you. your fault.
 
I hope it becomes an issue at all. This effects so many people, unlike Obama's plan to rescind the top tax cuts - those making 250k or over - and yet, that, is what is getting attention? I don't get it.

Really? You don't say...

I think the reason it is not getting more attention is because it would BENEFIT every group.... and we all know how much the media would hate to point that out as it might hurt the messiah.
 
Never mind... I took a look at factcheck and they also mention this... but they also provide the numbers for the plan....

http://www.factcheck.org/mccains_5000_promise.html

"The average annual premium costs for a family with employer-sponsored insurance (including both the employee's and employer's contribution) was $12,106 in 2007, and it was $4,479 for a single person, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation. Annual premiums for nongroup coverage (i.e., individually purchased plans) vary widely, currently ranging from $1,163 to $5,090 for singles, and $2,325 to $9,201 for family coverage. "

Lets note a few interesting tidbits from the above.....

1) the range for those that are not a part of group plans is what??? oh yeah, the top end of the family range is LOWER than the AVERAGE rate in group plans. Gee I wonder why he wants to encourage people going to the individual plan. Note, it would encourage it, but it would not prevent people from the group plan. For singles, again, the top of the range on an individual plan is just over the AVERAGE rate under a group plan.

2) the tax rebate for families... even if their group plan coverage is twice the average... say at $24k... and the employer paid half.... they would get taxed on $12k which at the highest tax brackets would just under $5k. So in the highest tax bracket for a family paying twice the average... the McCain plan would break even.

3) So if the net result is a benefit to every group... why are we upset with this?


I'm not sure if you realize it SF, but people like having health insurance and all that crap you have posted up there is nonsense for a whole host of reasons that I don't really want to get into.
 
NEWSFLASH: John McCain doesn't know shit about the economy and his chief source of economic intelligence is Phil Gramm .. who said you're just a bunch of "whiners, constantly whining and complaining."

That would be the same Phil Gramm of Enron and the same Phil Gramm largely repsonsible for the sub-prime meltdown.

And why doesn't the "news" focus on this?

Because you live in a plutocracy.

You actually think American media focuses on reality?

:chesh:
 
I'm not sure if you realize it SF, but people like having health insurance and all that crap you have posted up there is nonsense for a whole host of reasons that I don't really want to get into.

LMAO.... such a well thought out response.

1) They would not be losing healthcare or even have to switch out of the employer provided plans. They would actually come out ahead. But I know... McCain proposed it so it must be bad.

2) Very telling that you have a 'host of reasons' yet cannot provide a single one to justify calling my points "crap".
 
Really? You don't say...

I think the reason it is not getting more attention is because it would BENEFIT every group.... and we all know how much the media would hate to point that out as it might hurt the messiah.

SF, he is talking about taking our current system of employer-based health care, and rather than moving it in the direction polls show a majority of Americans want, moving it in the opposite direction by privatizing it. You might, in your income bracket (everyone please remember that SF is a single guy who did NOT qualify for the tax rebate), like this plan.

For a country that is already behind other westernized nations in providing health care, this would be a huge step in the wrong direction, and would go over about as well as privatizing health care.

You’re a financial elite. You can afford health care on your own, and you can also afford to sit around waiting for a tax deduction while you pay for the best health care available on the market. You are in no way representative. This plan, is disastrous for health care in America. And will be seen as such.

Gee, I wonder if that’s why John “Straight talken” McCain doesn’t have it on his website???
 
NEWSFLASH: John McCain doesn't know shit about the economy and his chief source of economic intelligence is Phil Gramm .. who said you're just a bunch of "whiners, constantly whining and complaining."

That would be the same Phil Gramm of Enron and the same Phil Gramm largely repsonsible for the sub-prime meltdown.

And why doesn't the "news" focus on this?

Because you live in a plutocracy.

You actually think American media focuses on reality?

:chesh:

LMAO.... you sound like Desh....

Gramm is not largely responsible for the sub-prime meltdown. He was a part of it, just like the other hacks in DC.

But thanks for "focusing on reality". Instead of addressing the reality of his plan, you come up with a vain attempt to distract from the topic.
 
I will have to read more about this. At first glance it sounds like I will pay tax on my company premium. So in my case my company SAYS it cost like 1000 a month but I know the group plan is somewhere closer to $600 coming from insurance. My premium is $150 a month but lets forget about that for now. So in my example I will be taxed on 600 a month or 7200 more of income a year.. say im in 28% tax bracket thats $2016. Even if they tax me at 1000 a month thats 12000x.28=3360. Then i get a tax credit for 5000 at the end of the year? Sounds like a wash or a gain to me???? What am i missing here?
 
Back
Top