Lost In The Noise

[Cancel 2016.2]

SF, he is talking about taking our current system of employer-based health care, and rather than moving it in the direction polls show a majority of Americans want, moving it in the opposite direction by privatizing it. You might, in your income bracket (everyone please remember that SF is a single guy who did NOT qualify for the tax rebate), like this plan.

For a country that is already behind other westernized nations in providing health care, this would be a huge step in the wrong direction, and would go over about as well as privatizing health care.

You’re a financial elite. You can afford health care on your own, and you can also afford to sit around waiting for a tax deduction while you pay for the best health care available on the market. You are in no way representative. This plan, is disastrous for health care in America. And will be seen as such.

Gee, I wonder if that’s why John “Straight talken” McCain doesn’t have it on his website???

LMAO... whatever.

Did you actually LOOK at the fucking numbers BEFORE you went off on your little whine fest?

I wonder if the majority of Americans would be upset paying LESS than they do now? Somehow I doubt it.

This would be a step in the right direction Darla. If everyone... regardless of tax bracket benefits from this... how the fuck is it "the wrong direction"???

Let me guess, you and Dung and BAC will continue to ignore the numbers and instead will rely on meaningless talking points.

LOOK AT THE DAMN NUMBERS.

 

[Bonestorm]

LMAO.... such a well thought out response.

1) They would not be losing healthcare or even have to switch out of the employer provided plans. They would actually come out ahead. But I know... McCain proposed it so it must be bad.

2) Very telling that you have a 'host of reasons' yet cannot provide a single one to justify calling my points "crap".

As an initial matter, that tax rebate that McCain is planning to give to cover the cost of paying taxes on your insurance premium is indexed to inflation whereas health insurance premiums have been increasing at double digit rates since the 1990s. $5,000 may cover it this year, but not next or the one after that or the one after that. As an initial matter, it is a tax increase and a tax increase that will impact the low and middle classes more than the rich. Surprise surprise.

And this assumes that your employer keeps your health insurance. Employers may very well decided that they don't want to pay for it, leaving individuals to the individual markets. That's all well and good for young, healthy men with a few grand to plop down on insurance, but for people that aren't so young, aren't so healthy, aren't so male and aren't so well off, the individual insurance market is a fucking nightmare.

Other than the above (and a few other things) McCain's plan is just great.

 

[Cancel7]

NEWSFLASH: John McCain doesn't know shit about the economy and his chief source of economic intelligence is Phil Gramm .. who said you're just a bunch of "whiners, constantly whining and complaining."

That would be the same Phil Gramm of Enron and the same Phil Gramm largely repsonsible for the sub-prime meltdown.

And why doesn't the "news" focus on this?

Because you live in a plutocracy.

You actually think American media focuses on reality?

No I know. And I also understand that arguing with the few financial elites, and SF is one of those (when you are single, no kids, and are making too much to qualify for the recent tax rebate, you’re in the top 2 percentile).

What I don’t understand bac, is you. I find SF more understandable. He’s going to do real well under a Phil Graham economic plan. Real well. Oh SF will be dining out at all the finest Colorado restaurants, wearing the best suits.

But you claim that there is no difference between McCain and Obama, yet, clearly, Obama’s plan, while far from the best, would move us in the direction of universal coverage, while McCain would move us towards the disastrous privatization. Thousands more than the already 18 thousand per year who die to lack of health care, will die under McCain/ Graham.

So while, I agree more with you, I find SF’s motives and logic, easier to grasp.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I will have to read more about this. At first glance it sounds like I will pay tax on my company premium. So in my case my company SAYS it cost like 1000 a month but I know the group plan is somewhere closer to $600 coming from insurance. My premium is $150 a month but lets forget about that for now. So in my example I will be taxed on 600 a month or 7200 more of income a year.. say im in 28% tax bracket thats $2016. Even if they tax me at 1000 a month thats 12000x.28=3360. Then i get a tax credit for 5000 at the end of the year? Sounds like a wash or a gain to me???? What am i missing here?

you aren't missing a thing.... it is a benefit for everyone. The only ones that might potentially pay more are those in the very top brackets... and that is only if the states ALSO tax it.

If you were taxed at $1000 per month at 40% it would only be $4800.

 

[blackascoal]

LMAO.... you sound like Desh....

Gramm is not largely responsible for the sub-prime meltdown. He was a part of it, just like the other hacks in DC.

But thanks for "focusing on reality". Instead of addressing the reality of his plan, you come up with a vain attempt to distract from the topic.

I'm not distracting from your topic sir .. I'm simply enjoying the show.

For you to say that Gramm was "just another hack" in the subprime meltdown demonstrates that you've validated my comments my brother .. and it demonstrates that you've never read the Gramm-Leach-Bliley legislation of 1999.

Just enjoying the show.

 

[Kamala Trump]

Bac just jizzed in sf's face

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

"As an initial matter, that tax rebate that McCain is planning to give to cover the cost of paying taxes on your insurance premium is indexed to inflation whereas health insurance premiums have been increasing at double digit rates since the 1990s. $5,000 may cover it this year, but not next or the one after that or the one after that."

We'll take this point by point. On the above... you fail to note that the $5000 covers it in the most extreme of cases. Your comments also assume that nothing will be done to combat the ever increasing healthcare costs. But that is also a part of his plan. I do agree that if nothing were done to combat costs that eventually this would not work. But to pretend it is not a part of the bigger plan is a bit silly.

"As an initial matter, it is a tax increase and a tax increase that will impact the low and middle classes more than the rich. Surprise surprise."

Their net taxes will be DOWN... not up. Go to your payroll department and ask them how it is they account for taxes that are withheld. They account for the standard deduction when withholding from your paycheck. They also account for whether you take extra withholding such as head of household, dependents etc... The same could be done for the healthcare to avoid it affecting the paychecks prior to the rebate. Though I do agree that if this is not done it would hurt the lower/middle income in the first year.

"And this assumes that your employer keeps your health insurance. Employers may very well decided that they don't want to pay for it, leaving individuals to the individual markets."

This is a bad argument, because employers can decide this now anyway. With or without this plan.

Other than the above (and a few other things) McCain's plan is just great.

Bad arguments on your part.... or at least not well thought out.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I'm not distracting from your topic sir .. I'm simply enjoying the show.

For you to say that Gramm was "just another hack" in the subprime meltdown demonstrates that you've validated my comments my brother .. and it demonstrates that you've never read the Gramm-Leach-Bliley legislation of 1999.

Just enjoying the show.

Again.... I did not relinquish him from all responsibility... yes he wrote Gramm-Leach-Biley. But that was one of many bills that created this mess.

The repealment of Glass Steagall was done over time. Initially the first Bush (dem Congress) chipped away at it, then Clinton (Rep Congress) continued chipping away at it both in 1995 (Fair Lending Act) and in 1999 (Gramms bill).

All in the name of more people owning homes. So yes, Gramm was a part of it. But to act like he played a bigger part than any of the other hacks is silly. His bill still had to be voted on in both the House and the Senate....and it still had to be signed into law by the President. Side note... if I remember correctly, they did not have enough votes to make the bill veto proof.

On top of the above, Greenspan and the Fed kept rates insanely low for too long. Lenders and borrowers took advantage and are responsible as well.

So stating that Gramm was largely responsible for this mess is idiotic. He was but a small part in the overall FUBAR of the situation. Note: It should also be noted that his bill... would not have been detrimental had Wall Street done such a piss poor job with the CDO universe.

 

[Chapdog]

you aren't missing a thing.... it is a benefit for everyone. The only ones that might potentially pay more are those in the very top brackets... and that is only if the states ALSO tax it.

If you were taxed at $1000 per month at 40% it would only be $4800.

thats what i thought. this could easily be offset by taking more exemptions.. as if the 18 i take now and pay practically zero fed tax isnt bad enough lol..

 

[uscitizen]

And while Greenspan was keeping the interest rate low you were loving it

 

[Damocles]

LMAO... whatever.

Did you actually LOOK at the fucking numbers BEFORE you went off on your little whine fest?

I wonder if the majority of Americans would be upset paying LESS than they do now? Somehow I doubt it.

This would be a step in the right direction Darla. If everyone... regardless of tax bracket benefits from this... how the fuck is it "the wrong direction"???

Let me guess, you and Dung and BAC will continue to ignore the numbers and instead will rely on meaningless talking points.

LOOK AT THE DAMN NUMBERS.

If McCain were dissembling in that fashion it is likely there'd be a thread about how "horrible" it was. As it is, they are attempting to take something that is complex, that cannot be explained in a soundbyte, and using it because most people won't sit through the explanation.

In short, it is the followers of a politician using politispeak to help their guy...

 

[Bonestorm]

Bad arguments on your part.... or at least not well thought out.

The idea that McCain has a "plan" to combat the costs of rising health insurance premiums and that we should assume that his "plan" will work to control skyrocketing premiums is a fucking joke. The bottom line is that McCain's tax credit will not cover the tax increases and that it will get worse and worse each year. That is the current reality.

On the second point, it's good to see that you agree with me based on the current reality. We cannot pretend that McCain's proposal does things that it doesn't do. It is a tax increase that will impact the lower and middle classes most and it will do so more and more as time goes on.

Thirdly, sure employers can decide now to drop health insurance. Making it much much more expensive for employers to provide health insurance for their employees will certainly have an impact on whether employers continue to provide health insurance. Your argument is fucking weak. Weak. Weak.

Look, it may be a decent deal for you. You are a wealthy, fairly young healthy single male. Just don't pretend that this is a great deal for everyone. it isn't.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

thats what i thought. this could easily be offset by taking more exemptions.. as if the 18 i take now and pay practically zero fed tax isnt bad enough lol..

exactly, everyone could claim a 'healthcare exemption' on their W2. DONE. Now the only way more money would come out of their paycheck is if they somehow managed to exceed the rebate amount.

 

[Bonestorm]

thats what i thought. this could easily be offset by taking more exemptions.. as if the 18 i take now and pay practically zero fed tax isnt bad enough lol..

Chap - You're missing a lot of things, most importantly the fact that the tax credit is indexed to inflation whereas your health insurance premiums have rising by double digit percentages since the 1990s. You may break even this year, but next year and the year after than and the year after that you will get hit with higher and higher taxes while the tax credit barely creeps upwards. You'll lose in the end. Myopia is a bitch.

 

[blackascoal]

No I know. And I also understand that arguing with the few financial elites, and SF is one of those (when you are single, no kids, and are making too much to qualify for the recent tax rebate, you’re in the top 2 percentile).

What I don’t understand bac, is you. I find SF more understandable. He’s going to do real well under a Phil Graham economic plan. Real well. Oh SF will be dining out at all the finest Colorado restaurants, wearing the best suits.

But you claim that there is no difference between McCain and Obama, yet, clearly, Obama’s plan, while far from the best, would move us in the direction of universal coverage, while McCain would move us towards the disastrous privatization. Thousands more than the already 18 thousand per year who die to lack of health care, will die under McCain/ Graham.

So while, I agree more with you, I find SF’s motives and logic, easier to grasp.

I understand and your confusion is valid.

It's not that I don't think Obama's plan isn't better than McCain's because I do. In fact, Obama has better plans on many issues that are better than McCain's.

This is why I spoke only of the absolute idiocy of supporting any McCain/Gramm economic plans on anything.

But the truth is that I don't trust Obama to carry through with any plan that does not meet the approval of the corporations he works for.

He just approved of GIVING the tiny nation of Georgia one billion dollars as a payoff for treachery. It's difficult not to see the shadows behind the curtains when looking at Obama.

I'm not a lessor of two evils voter.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

"The idea that McCain has a "plan" to combat the costs of rising health insurance premiums and that we should assume that his "plan" will work to control skyrocketing premiums is a fucking joke. The bottom line is that McCain's tax credit will not cover the tax increases and that it will get worse and worse each year. That is the current reality."

No dear dung, that is NOT the current reality. It is what you want to pretend is reality. Again, his plan will more than cover the costs of the tax increase. Run the damn numbers. I posted them so that you could do so. It would take years for them to catch up to his rebate.

"On the second point, it's good to see that you agree with me based on the current reality. We cannot pretend that McCain's proposal does things that it doesn't do. It is a tax increase that will impact the lower and middle classes most and it will do so more and more as time goes on."

Bullshit. I did not agree to that. Again, it is a simple adjustment on the W2. Done.

Thirdly, sure employers can decide now to drop health insurance. Making it much much more expensive for employers to provide health insurance for their employees will certainly have an impact on whether employers continue to provide health insurance. Your argument is fucking weak. Weak. Weak.

Look, it may be a decent deal for you. You are a wealthy, fairly young healthy single male. Just don't pretend that this is a great deal for everyone. it isn't.

shit... firealarm.... I will respond to the rest later.

 

[Cancel7]

If McCain were dissembling in that fashion it is likely there'd be a thread about how "horrible" it was. As it is, they are attempting to take something that is complex, that cannot be explained in a soundbyte, and using it because most people won't sit through the explanation.

In short, it is the followers of a politician using politispeak to help their guy...

It's an attempt to privatize health insurance. It's not hard to understand. It's the exact opposite directon of where most Americans want to go.

It will also hurt the most vulnerable the most, and the middle class, eventually.

I am kind of hoping that it becomes a big deal, because much like SS privatization, which you and SF were also for - the super majority of Americans will fiercely reject this. The dems need to make a big deal out of this. It's a win-win for Obama. Only the financial elite like SF, and the ideologically married to it, like you, will support this.

What's kind of funny is, I don't think you are in quite the pretty financial position SF is in. Wouldn't it be funny if you ended up, a couple of years down the road, losing your insurance because of privatization, and then you, your wife, or your kid got sick, and you were totally fucked, and had to sell your house? Wow, that would be ironic.

SF benefits. You lose. He's smart. You're stupid and vindictive.

 

[Cancel7]

I understand and your confusion is valid.

It's not that I don't think Obama's plan isn't better than McCain's because I do. In fact, Obama has better plans on many issues that are better than McCain's.

This is why I spoke only of the absolute idiocy of supporting any McCain/Gramm economic plans on anything.

But the truth is that I don't trust Obama to carry through with any plan that does not meet the approval of the corporations he works for.

He just approved of GIVING the tiny nation of Georgia one billion dollars as a payoff for treachery. It's difficult not to see the shadows behind the curtains when looking at Obama.

I'm not a lessor of two evils voter.

Ok, I see. I don't trust anybody I don't personally know. I can only go by what they say, and I guess it comes down to...hope?

 

[uscitizen]

Before my divorce I was paying 670 per month for health ins for myself and my wife. My employer claimed to be apying 250. Run those figures SF.

 

[uscitizen]

I find it interesting how republicans seem to be supporting a new tax.

does that mean it is time to bend over and get out the vaseline ?