Marxism, Communism, Capitalism and historical lessons

Scott

Verified User
I just finished reading an article published today by a write named David Josef Volodzko. He's written for various mainstream publications, including The Wall Street Journal, Forbes and Bloomberg, as well as a few lesser known ones (details here: https://substack.com/@volodzko). I completely understand if no one here has heard of him- until recently, neither had I. He caught my attention a while back over some other subject and I've been following his substack ever since. His substack is focused primarily on writing about communism, fascism and radical movements. The article he published today on his substack is titled "You might be a Marxist if...", which after a bit of thought I decided wouldn't make the best title for a thread- some people might automatically assume that they couldn't possibly be Marxists and thus my thread wouldn't be worth reading.

I myself don't consider myself to be a Marxist and while I appreciate a lot of what David says on Marx and Marxist thought, he seems to be more fond of Marx and his work than I am. If I had to label myself as something, I think that democratic socialist has a better ring to it, but that doesn't mean that I can't appreciate the work of various people on the right wing side of politics, especially when it comes to criticizing government over reach such as a lot of things that happened during the alleged Covid "pandemic". Alright, with all that said, I'll now quote a bit of David's article from its introduction and from its conclusion and see if it elicits a constructive comment or 2...

**
On Wednesday, I published an interview with Freddie deBoer in which we discussed his new book, How Elites Ate the Social Justice Movement, which you should read. Among other things, it explains why social reform stalls, how it can succeed and why the Black Lives Matter movement was a failure. One reader, Edward Lothman, commented:

I wonder how a person can be “a Marxist and a sharp writer” at the same time. Seems impossible to me. Anyone with brains knows that system has not and will not work - ever. It flies in the face of human nature, and is solely responsible itself for the killing of countless millions of people.​

To which deBoer himself replied:

Eat shit.​

Hi there, Edward. I began to write a reply but it was getting a bit long, so I decided to make a post of it and here we are. I hear what you’re saying about supporting an ideology that has killed countless millions. But it has been counted! This week, I interviewed Elizabeth Spalding, chair of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who noted communism has killed over 100 million people and explained the breakdown. I’ll publish that interview soon and I hope you enjoy the discussion.

That said, I think you may be confusing Marxism with communism. More precisely, with Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism or other violent forms of communism. Not all communism is violent and not all Marxism is communist. In fact, I would go so far as to say most folks are Marxist, in a certain sense, because Marxist ideas have become so deeply embedded in society that people not only embrace them without recognizing them as such, they even view some as common sense. But it wasn’t always this way.

Strictly speaking, Marxism is a method of socio-economic analysis. Let’s consider a few of its major themes that are mostly taken as “well, duh” statements today.

First, there’s the materialist conception of history. Marxist theory considers material conditions to be the primary drivers of change. Our economic base, or the way production is organized in society, largely determines what Marxists call the superstructure—the social, political and ideological aspects of our world. If you change the way production is organized, you change the superstructure.

Consider the Agricultural Revolution. Around 10,000 BCE, humans went from nomadic hunting and gathering to farming and domesticating animals. That’s a change in the means of production. People then began to form permanent settlements, which became the first cities, allowing the development of complex societies. As agricultural surplus grew, the haves and have-nots became more distinct. This accumulation of wealth had to be protected, which led to the development of centralized governance and the rise of kings and armies. This gave way to great wars, which left corpses in dense urban environments, and some early faiths evolved essentially as funeral services with built-in purity rites. Urban hygiene, basically. Later, this was symbolized as spiritual cleanliness.

By the way, that last bit about early faiths was my master’s thesis.

So the means of productions changed and, as a result, we got urbanization, social stratification, political centralization, early monarchic rule and organized religious groups. So yeah, one could definitely say the superstructure changed.


[snip]

Yes, Marx used his analysis to advocate for communism, but you can absolutely use Marxist analysis without doing so. In fact, I dare say one can understand the modern world without being Marxist at least to some extent. Sure, you can say that despite the pervasiveness of Marxist thinking, it’s an oversimplification to suggest everyone is a Marxist simply because we all traffic in Marxist thought. But even if we reflexively reject the term, which seems a bit silly to me, we cannot avoid the influence of his work.

On a deeper level, you could also say that we not only use Marxist analysis, but we often use it for the same end. Not communism, but the hope for a collective well-being that shapes the horizon of our aspirations. In this light, perhaps, even if we reject communism, we still see our world through the lens he crafted and are bound by a vision he preached of a just and equitable world and, in that way, we are all Marxists.

**

Full article:
You might be a Marxist if... | volodzko.substack.com
 
Socialism, in its purest form, is the reason why society works...why civilizations exist...why chaos and anarchy are not the norm.

Anyone who does not realize that...just is not looking at the reality of what makes today's world possible.

The American scorn and contempt for socialism is as misplaced as anything can be. Only when we all finally wake up and realize this...will our Republic be fulfilled.

Of course, that requires that we get past this period of turmoil in our history. We can only hope that resolution of our present turmoil is the catalyst for movement toward that fulfillment.
 
Socialism, in its purest form, is the reason why society works...why civilizations exist...why chaos and anarchy are not the norm.

Anyone who does not realize that...just is not looking at the reality of what makes today's world possible.

The American scorn and contempt for socialism is as misplaced as anything can be. Only when we all finally wake up and realize this...will our Republic be fulfilled.

Of course, that requires that we get past this period of turmoil in our history. We can only hope that resolution of our present turmoil is the catalyst for movement toward that fulfillment.

I think we essentially agree here. The issue is that a lot of people have an issue with the word. It's kind of like some people have an issue with the word God. So if they don't like the word socialism, I'll resort to just getting the basics, that bit about a "just and equitable word" and things like that.
 
The problem with any form of socialism is that it requires altruism on the part of the population subject to it. In its most virulent forms, socialism takes over the entire economy and hands out to each member of society what is deemed their 'fair share.'

The problem comes about when human nature comes into the equation. Humans are not altruistic by nature. Thus, the result is the more socialism imposed on a society, the more that society has to become an oppressive dictatorship. There is no other way to ensure that each member of society gives up the fruits of their labor for redistribution. That in turn, means the most productive members of society stop producing since they recognize their hard work isn't going to be rewarded.

The ignorant and lazy simply demand more without contributing. That results in government becoming an omnipresent force in society threatening both groups, the productive with prison if they won't work hard, and the ignorant and lazy being told to shut up and be thankful for what they get or they too go to prison.

Marxism doesn't work because it requires human nature itself to radically evolve from what it is, and that isn't happening.
 
The problem with any form of socialism is that it requires altruism on the part of the population subject to it. In its most virulent forms, socialism takes over the entire economy and hands out to each member of society what is deemed their 'fair share.'

The problem comes about when human nature comes into the equation. Humans are not altruistic by nature. Thus, the result is the more socialism imposed on a society, the more that society has to become an oppressive dictatorship. There is no other way to ensure that each member of society gives up the fruits of their labor for redistribution. That in turn, means the most productive members of society stop producing since they recognize their hard work isn't going to be rewarded.

The ignorant and lazy simply demand more without contributing. That results in government becoming an omnipresent force in society threatening both groups, the productive with prison if they won't work hard, and the ignorant and lazy being told to shut up and be thankful for what they get or they too go to prison.

Marxism doesn't work because it requires human nature itself to radically evolve from what it is, and that isn't happening.

We keep hearing that socialism does not work...has never worked...will never work...

...but the truth is it has worked very successfully in places and probably can work even better in a more welcoming society.

China is about as socialistic a country as has ever been. China is the second most dynamic economy in the world...and is rapidly closing on the number one. (Yeah, it has had some significant set-backs recently, but it is still robust and WORKING.)

The American Right uses the word as a pejorative...most often by people who would benefit from the incorporation of a bit more socialism into the free-enterprise/capitalistic system we now have.

Yes, there are fundamental flaws in socialism, and we would be wise to avoid those traps. BUT there are fundamental flaws* in our free-enterprise/capitalistic system...and we are NOT avoiding those traps at all right now.

*Read some articles showing statistics on the percentage of our nation's wealth that is owned by the top 1%...and the percentage of our nation's wealth owned by the bottom 50%!
 
We keep hearing that socialism does not work...has never worked...will never work...

...but the truth is it has worked very successfully in places and probably can work even better in a more welcoming society.

China is about as socialistic a country as has ever been. China is the second most dynamic economy in the world...and is rapidly closing on the number one. (Yeah, it has had some significant set-backs recently, but it is still robust and WORKING.)

The American Right uses the word as a pejorative...most often by people who would benefit from the incorporation of a bit more socialism into the free-enterprise/capitalistic system we now have.

Yes, there are fundamental flaws in socialism, and we would be wise to avoid those traps. BUT there are fundamental flaws* in our free-enterprise/capitalistic system...and we are NOT avoiding those traps at all right now.

*Read some articles showing statistics on the percentage of our nation's wealth that is owned by the top 1%...and the percentage of our nation's wealth owned by the bottom 50%!

You are wrong. In Europe much of what they had as socialist systems in place in the 1950's to 1970's were ended and gone starting in the 80's. Industry and manufacturing were so grossly uncompetitive and inefficient under socialism that has nearly completely been displaced by capitalism. The social-welfare state was also rolled back ending things like mass public housing and generational / perpetual welfare.

In China their system of statist-capitalism (aka fascism) isn't working either. Things are beginning to fall apart there. Look at their EV push for example. They now have tens of thousands of battery cars rotting in lots nobody wants or can afford. But the state demanded they be made. Doesn't matter if the factory is privately owned, the state set what would be produced.

China's often vaunted by the Left high speed rail system is a massive monetary sinkhole. It hemorrhages money. Right now, it's about $600 billion--some claim as much as a trillion--in the hole and that number is growing, not shrinking.

All that is what central planning and government control gets you.

Socialism in very limited doses under tight control, is a boon to a nation. Pure laissez faire capitalism can be as much a trainwreck as heavy handed socialism. But socialism as a system is grossly inferior. Socialism should be a last resort, not a first. It simply doesn't work because it goes against the very root of human nature.
 
You are wrong. In Europe much of what they had as socialist systems in place in the 1950's to 1970's were ended and gone starting in the 80's. Industry and manufacturing were so grossly uncompetitive and inefficient under socialism that has nearly completely been displaced by capitalism. The social-welfare state was also rolled back ending things like mass public housing and generational / perpetual welfare.

In China their system of statist-capitalism (aka fascism) isn't working either. Things are beginning to fall apart there. Look at their EV push for example. They now have tens of thousands of battery cars rotting in lots nobody wants or can afford. But the state demanded they be made. Doesn't matter if the factory is privately owned, the state set what would be produced.

China's often vaunted by the Left high speed rail system is a massive monetary sinkhole. It hemorrhages money. Right now, it's about $600 billion--some claim as much as a trillion--in the hole and that number is growing, not shrinking.

All that is what central planning and government control gets you.

Socialism in very limited doses under tight control, is a boon to a nation. Pure laissez faire capitalism can be as much a trainwreck as heavy handed socialism. But socialism as a system is grossly inferior. Socialism should be a last resort, not a first. It simply doesn't work because it goes against the very root of human nature.

Okay...if you want to stick with the bullshit, I have no objection.

Without socialism, you have no civilization, because socialism is the foundation of civilization. Without it you have only chaos and anarchy.

Free enterprise is fine...capitalism is fine...but both are more easily corrupted than socialism...as we can easily see here in America.

For some of you, though, it takes one-tenth of one percent owning 99% of the wealth of the country before you wake up.

So be it.
 
Okay...if you want to stick with the bullshit, I have no objection.

Without socialism, you have no civilization, because socialism is the foundation of civilization. Without it you have only chaos and anarchy.

Free enterprise is fine...capitalism is fine...but both are more easily corrupted than socialism...as we can easily see here in America.

For some of you, though, it takes one-tenth of one percent owning 99% of the wealth of the country before you wake up.

So be it.

That's untrue. There is no need for socialism to have a civilization. You can have one based solely on capitalism. A capitalist society can still have laws and rules to abide by the difference is that it doesn't do things collectively. That is, there is no taxation for common purposes.

Socialism is more easily corrupted than capitalism too. In socialist societies, those running the programs and collecting the taxes for them have a perfect position to act corruptly. In a capitalist society you can only steal from yourself. In both you can take advantage of others, but the difference is that a capitalist can only do so through guile and deception while in a socialist one government can coerce behavior.

In either, a small minority can end up being the owners of the vast majority of the wealth too. No difference there.
 
Socialism, in its purest form, is the reason why society works...why civilizations exist...why chaos and anarchy are not the norm.

Anyone who does not realize that...just is not looking at the reality of what makes today's world possible.

The American scorn and contempt for socialism is as misplaced as anything can be. Only when we all finally wake up and realize this...will our Republic be fulfilled.

Of course, that requires that we get past this period of turmoil in our history. We can only hope that resolution of our present turmoil is the catalyst for movement toward that fulfillment.

There is an unfortunate paradigm, Frank, where people accept not the scholarly definition of words

but the applied definitions as used by the demagogues who dictate their social values.

Half the people on this forum won't even admit
that social security, medicare, unemployment insurance, and veterans benefits
are textbook examples of socialism.

Neither Stalin nor Mao tried to introduce them to our culture
so it's absurd to call them "socialism."

Meanwhile, we're both astounded to find out,

communism and fascism are the exact same thing!!!

Think of the bloodshed Hitler and Stalin could have avoided

if only they understood that as well as our crackers do.:palm:
 
There is an unfortunate paradigm, Frank, where people accept not the scholarly definition of words

but the applied definitions as used by the demagogues who dictate their social values.

Half the people on this forum won't even admit
that social security, medicare, unemployment insurance, and veterans benefits
are textbook examples of socialism.

Neither Stalin nor Mao tried to introduce them to our culture
so it's absurd to call them "socialism."

Meanwhile, we're both astounded to find out,

communism and fascism are the exact same thing!!!

Think of the bloodshed Hitler and Stalin could have avoided

if only they understood that as well as our crackers do.:palm:

Veteran's benefits are not socialism. They are a contractual obligation in exchange for services rendered. Unemployment insurance is not socialism either. It is insurance, same as flood insurance, or health insurance. You pay in and if you become unemployed, you get payment from the insurance policy.
 
That's untrue. There is no need for socialism to have a civilization. You can have one based solely on capitalism. A capitalist society can still have laws and rules to abide by the difference is that it doesn't do things collectively. That is, there is no taxation for common purposes.

Socialism is more easily corrupted than capitalism too. In socialist societies, those running the programs and collecting the taxes for them have a perfect position to act corruptly. In a capitalist society you can only steal from yourself. In both you can take advantage of others, but the difference is that a capitalist can only do so through guile and deception while in a socialist one government can coerce behavior.

In either, a small minority can end up being the owners of the vast majority of the wealth too. No difference there.

If you think a society where 70% of the total of our nation is owned by the top wealthiest 10%...and the lowest in wealth 50% own only 2% of the wealth...is a success...

...then we simply have different ideas of what success is.

I am a capitalist. I may well be the only person in this discussion that actually worked on Wall Street. But capitalism has been corrupted to its core. If you cannot see that...okay, you cannot. But it has...and it is getting worse and worse with each passing day. Now it has become almost a game...with individuals attempting to become the top dog...with each owning more and more of the pie.

I suspect one day you will see the truth of this.

Enjoy your day.
 
If you think a society where 70% of the total of our nation is owned by the top wealthiest 10%...and the lowest in wealth 50% own only 2% of the wealth...is a success...

...then we simply have different ideas of what success is.

I am a capitalist. I may well be the only person in this discussion that actually worked on Wall Street. But capitalism has been corrupted to its core. If you cannot see that...okay, you cannot. But it has...and it is getting worse and worse with each passing day. Now it has become almost a game...with individuals attempting to become the top dog...with each owning more and more of the pie.

I suspect one day you will see the truth of this.

Enjoy your day.

By comparison, yes, that's successful. Most societies are more like 90 to 95% owned by the top 1 or 2%, with the remaining 90 to 95% owned by the next 5 to 10% and the other 95 to 85% being impoverished.

In the US today roughly 9% of the population are millionaires. The middle class is shrinking and that's due in largest part to increasing amounts of government.
 
America has been wrestling with the inequities of power and money since it started. Teddy Roosevelt in 1910 said "Those who oppose reform will do well to remember that ruin in its worst form is inevitable if our national life brings us nothing better than swollen fortunes for the few and the triumph in both politics and business of sordid selfish materialism. https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black...evelts-attack-excessive-concentration-wealth/
Our wealth concentration is worse than the Gilded Age. Money =power. We have people who think a self-proclaimed billionaire shares and understands their problems. Teddy was talking about these times.
 
The problem with any form of socialism is that it requires altruism on the part of the population subject to it. In its most virulent forms, socialism takes over the entire economy and hands out to each member of society what is deemed their 'fair share.'

The problem comes about when human nature comes into the equation. Humans are not altruistic by nature. Thus, the result is the more socialism imposed on a society, the more that society has to become an oppressive dictatorship. There is no other way to ensure that each member of society gives up the fruits of their labor for redistribution. That in turn, means the most productive members of society stop producing since they recognize their hard work isn't going to be rewarded.

The ignorant and lazy simply demand more without contributing. That results in government becoming an omnipresent force in society threatening both groups, the productive with prison if they won't work hard, and the ignorant and lazy being told to shut up and be thankful for what they get or they too go to prison.

Marxism doesn't work because it requires human nature itself to radically evolve from what it is, and that isn't happening.

I've actually thought a lot about the definition of altruism. The American Heritage Dictionary, 5th Edition has 2 definitions for it:

**
[1] noun Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

[2] noun Zoology Instinctive behavior that is detrimental to the individual but favors the survival or spread of that individual's genes, as by benefiting its relatives.
**

In response to the first definition: A while back, I stopped believing that selflessness really exists, because I believe that in the greater picture, the Universe (or multiverse) is truly all connected and thus there is really nothing out there that isn't self, albeit in a way that is frequently hard to fathom.

The second definition actually gets into my idea that we frequently consider our "selves" to be more than just our bodies, generally taking into account one's families, larger social groups, species and even other species that we have come to value highly.

Anyway, with these definitions of altruism in mind, I think that there are many people who are "altruistic", in that they'd like to help not just themselves, but those who are close to them, human or otherwise.

There is one thing that I think we can strongly agree, and that is that people who contribute significantly to society should be rewarded. I think the main issue is that there should be safeguards in place so that a select few can't game the system to the point that they are rewarded far too much. Western mainstream media has frequently called these people "Oligarchs" when they are in countries that we don't like. I find it rather comical that Merriam Webster's second definition of oligarchs starts with this:

**In Russia and other countries that succeeded the Soviet Union : one of a class of individuals who through private acquisition of state assets amassed great wealth that is stored especially in foreign accounts and properties and who typically maintain close links to the highest government circles**

The U.S. certainly has its oligarchs as well, and we tend to know them by name. Bill Gates and Elon Musk are perhaps the most well known examples, but billionaires in general tend to fit the bill.

I think the best parts of socialism are forces that seek to distribute the dizzying amounts of wealth that the top 1% (or .1%, etc.) have and give more of it to the lowest wage earners. I think it's a good sign that strikes are on the rise in the U.S., for instance the writers and actors strikes, that have demanded that the CEOs with their millions share a tad more of that wealth with the people who are making them so much money, for instance. Wouldn't you agree that that's a good thing?
 
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By comparison, yes, that's successful. Most societies are more like 90 to 95% owned by the top 1 or 2%, with the remaining 90 to 95% owned by the next 5 to 10% and the other 95 to 85% being impoverished.

In the US today roughly 9% of the population are millionaires. The middle class is shrinking and that's due in largest part to increasing amounts of government.

Yup, you've got a problem with "government." Most of the people on your side do. Like Reagan said, "...government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.:

Right.

And then the Right attempts to be part of government in order to prove that is correct.

Pathetic.

Government (with its socialistic aspects) are the reason civilization exists. Without it, there would be chaos and anarchy.

But you folk will never get that. You will, however, make sure you live in a place with plenty of government. You will not move to the wilderness...or to Somalia.

So be it.
 
I've actually thought a lot about the definition of altruism. The American Heritage Dictionary, 5th Edition has 2 definitions for it:

**
[1] noun Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

[2] noun Zoology Instinctive behavior that is detrimental to the individual but favors the survival or spread of that individual's genes, as by benefiting its relatives.
**

In response to the first definition: A while back, I stopped believing that selflessness really exists, because I believe that in the greater picture, the Universe (or multiverse) is truly all connected and thus there is really nothing out there that isn't self, albeit in a way that is frequently hard to fathom.

The second definition actually gets into my idea that we frequently consider our "selves" to be more than just our bodies, generally taking into account one's families, larger social groups, species and even other species that we have come to value highly.

Anyway, with these definitions of altruism in mind, I think that there are many people who are "altruistic", in that they'd like to help not just themselves, but those who are close to them, human or otherwise.

There is one thing that I think we can strongly agree, and that is that people who contribute significantly to society should be rewarded. I think the main issue is that there should be safeguards in place so that a select few can't game the system to the point that they are rewarded far too much. Western mainstream media has frequently called these people "Oligarchs" when they are in countries that we don't like. I find it rather comical that Merriam Webster's second definition of oligarchs starts with this:

**In Russia and other countries that succeeded the Soviet Union : one of a class of individuals who through private acquisition of state assets amassed great wealth that is stored especially in foreign accounts and properties and who typically maintain close links to the highest government circles**

The U.S. certainly has its oligarchs as well, and we tend to know them by name. Bill Gates and Elon Musk are perhaps the most well known examples, but billionaires in general tend to fit the bill.

I think the best parts of socialism are forces that seek to distribute the dizzying amounts of wealth that the top 1% (or .1%, etc.) have and have more of it go to the lowest earners. I think it's a good sign that strikes are on the rise in the U.S., for instance in the writers and actors strikes that have demanded that the CEOs with their millions share a tad more of that wealth with the people who are making them so much money, for instance. Wouldn't you agree that that's a good thing?

It think some people are altruistic to one degree or another, but none are completely altruistic. I also think you can't get anywhere close to 100% of people to be altruistic. That's where the train wreck with socialism comes in. Socialism requires everyone to act altruistically. That is you have to be willing to work for the good of others at your own expense.

That doesn't happen. Instead, as history clearly shows, socialism instead plays to the lowest common denominator. For the majority of those who can do stuff, they stop trying so hard and instead, do less when they recognize there's no reward for them in doing more. For those who could be doing something, but currently aren't, they too see no point in trying because they are getting sufficient doing little or nothing.

The biggest danger to a socialist society are risk takers. They see opportunity in black markets to go around the system and make more for themselves. Whether it is stealing from the state to sell to black market operators, or being an operator, they engage in practices that undermine the socialist system. Of course, this type doesn't care that that happens. Their interest is in bettering themselves.

The most successful of this sort became the oligarchs in Russia and elsewhere as communism collapsed. They were already poised with resources and capital to become successful in a capitalist market.

I think heavy handed socialism fucks 95% of society while benefiting the other 5% and locking that ratio down where there's no chance for improvement within the system. I would rather have a open market system where it is possible to grow the size of the market and become wealthy to one degree or another.

To look at it another way, socialism fixes the size of the economic 'pie' with very little potential for growth. The economy stagnates. In a more open capitalist system, the economic 'pie' grows continuously. New wealth continually gets added to the economy. Sure, much of that might accumulate in the hands of a few, but even so those further down benefit from this too. That isn't "trickle down" economics but rather an economy that allows anyone to lift themselves up by their boot straps.

Bill Gates and Elon Musk didn't rely on wealth from the top to get insanely rich. They found products and services they could make a lot of money off of selling them. Not everyone can find such opportunities, but even on a lower scale, someone with some initiative and skill can produce sufficient wealth they are comfortable with. The only persons who fail in such a market are those too lazy or unwilling to put in the effort to get ahead.
 
Yup, you've got a problem with "government." Most of the people on your side do. Like Reagan said, "...government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem.:

Right.

And then the Right attempts to be part of government in order to prove that is correct.

Pathetic.

Government (with its socialistic aspects) are the reason civilization exists. Without it, there would be chaos and anarchy.

But you folk will never get that. You will, however, make sure you live in a place with plenty of government. You will not move to the wilderness...or to Somalia.

So be it.

It isn't an "all-or-nothing" proposition. Too much government is as bad, or worse, than no government. Finding the correct balance is difficult, and the fact that government is bureaucratic by nature makes it tend towards becoming too much government.

Some socialism is good for a society so long as it is tightly controlled in scope and expense. It is better for the market to run most things than let the government do it.

For example, there is no real reason we should have universal government run healthcare. If healthcare were in a free market, it would be much cheaper than it is now. The problem is, at least in the US, that government got involved in that market and fucked the price of everything up as a result. That's one example of too much government in the market.
 
It isn't an "all-or-nothing" proposition. Too much government is as bad, or worse, than no government. Finding the correct balance is difficult, and the fact that government is bureaucratic by nature makes it tend towards becoming too much government.

Some socialism is good for a society so long as it is tightly controlled in scope and expense. It is better for the market to run most things than let the government do it.

For example, there is no real reason we should have universal government run healthcare. If healthcare were in a free market, it would be much cheaper than it is now. The problem is, at least in the US, that government got involved in that market and fucked the price of everything up as a result. That's one example of too much government in the market.

Out healthcare is bad because it is a for-profit system. It is not government healthcare. The VA is government healthcare. The vets love it. Medicare is government healthcare. Their function is to deliver good care and do it as cheaply as possible. That is why they stress preventative care. The less often they see patients, the better off they are. The money and care go further.
Government healthcare is cheaper and better as universal healthcare in every other industrial nation has shown.
 
Out healthcare is bad because it is a for-profit system. It is not government healthcare. The VA is government healthcare. The vets love it. Medicare is government healthcare. Their function is to deliver good care and do it as cheaply as possible. That is why they stress preventative care. The less often they see patients, the better off they are. The money and care go further.
Government healthcare is cheaper and better as universal healthcare in every other industrial nation has shown.

No, our healthcare system is expensive because it relies on insurance. Government run healthcare would be nearly as expensive. The VA varies in quality depending on location. Every veteran I know, and I know quite a few, look at VA healthcare as a last resort, not a first choice. They hate the wait times, indifferent quality, and questionable service.

If we weren't stuck with a system that relied on insurance for routine care, healthcare would be much cheaper as it is in sectors like cosmetic and elective surgery. Chiropractic care is another usual pay-as-you-go service that is much cheaper than areas covered by insurance.

I personally think that we need a mix of government and private healthcare with an emphasis on personal responsibility. That way costs are kept down and for really serious medical conditions you get full coverage. I don't see it happening though because the powers that be would never give up the control they have.
 
If I had to label myself as something, I think that democratic socialist has a better ring to it, ...
A democratic socialist is a socialist, which makes you a Marxist. All Marxists orgasm over inserting the word "democratic" in a name, which they understand is just a euphemism for "hard-line oligarchy". The reason you can't articulate any difference between your views and a socialist's views is because there aren't any.

Socialism, in its purest form, is the reason why society works...why civilizations exist...why chaos and anarchy are not the norm.
Yeah, you're a Marxist as well. One indicator that gives you away is your total dishonesty.

The American scorn and contempt for socialism is as misplaced as anything can be.
Only a Marxist as completely dishonest as you could follow up his deification of socialism with this:

I am a capitalist.
Nope. You are a hardcore Marxist with the dishonesty to prove it.

Wealth inequality is a good thing, not a bad thing. Of course, all Marxists demonize wealth inequality because the only society that they consider successful is one in which everybody is broke and miserable.

Marxist Slogan: We're not happy until you're not happy! ... and then we're not happy.

But capitalism has been corrupted to its core.
... says the dishonest Marxist who doesn't even know what capitalism is.
 
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