Middle class stagnation

[Damocles]

I'd be interested to see it; it just doesn't ring true that there is some sort of equal assembly line process going on, where the % of lower class moving to middle class is the same as the % of those moving from middle to upper. The #'s don't wash with overall %'s in America.

That is why "more millionaires" is such a bad gauge of the overall economy. It doesn't apply to a huge majority of Americans. For many of those Americans, their wages are stagnant; they don't just "appear" stagnant because they are all of a sudden upper class, and someone lower class has just taken their place.

And now you are talking about perception. Numbers often reflect a different reality than what is perceived. For the past 8 years we have been reading, usually from people like Krugman, how we are on the brink of total economic collapse. It isn't hard when reading stories like that constantly to see how perception may not reflect the numbers.

(This does not mean that I believe that the Housing Crunch is not going to hurt the economy, on the contrary there narrow window to be able to do something about it is closing quickly with fumbling and no action from leaders in Congress and slower than necessary action from the Fed).

 

[Onceler]

"No candidate on either side is saying the middle class is great. Neither am I,"

You said they were "fat & happy."

Just an FYI.

 

[Onceler]

And now you are talking about perception. Numbers often reflect a different reality than what is perceived. For the past 8 years we have been reading, usually from people like Krugman, how we are on the brink of total economic collapse. It isn't hard when reading stories like that constantly to see how perception may not reflect the numbers.

(This does not mean that I believe that the Housing Crunch is not going to hurt the economy, on the contrary there narrow window to be able to do something about it is closing quickly with fumbling and no action from leaders in Congress).

It is not merely perception that the costs of college, housing, energy & healthcare have increased at a much faster rate than the average increase in wages.

That's reality for many families. It's not about a big screen TV; it's about not being able to keep up with the cost of living, which is why America is also at a record level of personal debt.

 

[Bonestorm]

not doing great is a quantum leap from stagnant since the 80's
I know your not good with numbers cypress but that was weak.
No candidate on either side is saying the middle class is great. Neither am I, heck the upper class is struggling too. I'm down 100,000 in the last couple months on paper.

What a crock. We know that there has been fairly steady economic growth over the past six or seven years. The question is where the growth manifests itself. From what I have read (see Piketty and Saez) the growth is largely concentrated in the top 1%. Maybe the upper class isn't doing as well as the upper-upper class. But it's not doing to bad overall.

 

[Damocles]

It is not merely perception that the costs of college, housing, energy & healthcare have increased at a much faster rate than the average increase in wages.

That's reality for many families. It's not about a big screen TV; it's about not being able to keep up with the cost of living, which is why America is also at a record level of personal debt.

Again, average increase in wages. This again would reflect in the numbers as shown above. Those who stayed middle class would feel cheated, and may be. But it wouldn't change the reality of the numbers as shown to me. Reality for some families may add to the perception, but it wouldn't change the reality of the numbers that were shown.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I heard an economist talking recently on this one. I'll have to see if I can find it again. I have to remember what show it was. I need the statistics.

Basically what he had to say, and what he showed, was that the upper class has grown, the middle class stayed about the same size and the lower class had gotten smaller. The numbers showed that people have moved from middle to upper class and from lower to middle at about the same rates, making the middle class appear "stagnant" while in reality those at the top moved up, new ones were added to the bottom making their wages appear "stagnant".

In other words. Topspin is correct in "more millionaires than ever before"....

I'll see if I can find the guy again.

I think US Cit is also correct. How many families lived in 2500+ square foot homes back in the 70's?

How many families in the 70's had enough vehicles for every driver in the family?

How many had multiple TVs in the house?

Yes, many families need dual incomes... but is it due to "stagnation" of the middle class or is it due to the "I want it all and I want it now" mentality?

Side note to US.... damn you! Now the song is stuck in my head. Evil old fart.

 

[Topspin]

it's true energy and housing have inflated a lot since 2000.
It's Globalization affecting the average Joe. And it's only going to get worse. The indians and Chinees/Mexicans will do unskilled labor for 1/10 what Americans will. NO CANDIDATE WILL CHANGE THAT.
That said it's more important than ever despite what USC says to get a college degree or a high paying skill set. NOBODY competes with us on the high end.

 

[Obfuscate]

I'm positive most middle class people and lower class people would never agree to go back to the living standards they had pre 1980. What a stupid argument.

 

[Cypress]

I'm positive most middle class people and lower class people would never agree to go back to the living standards they had pre 1980. What a stupid argument.

this is the problem with out-of-touch keyboard warriors.

there are probably tens of millions of people in small town south carolina, michigan, and kansas that would love to have back their old union jobs at the textile mill, the auto plant, or the petrochemical plant that used to be in their towns.

 

[Obfuscate]

There are 100's of millions of Americans that enjoy their higher standards of living, lower prices and higher wages. Sure there is the destruction side of creative destruction and it is visable however the net benefits far outway the negatives.

Creative Destruction:

A term coined by Joseph Schumpeter in his work entitled "Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy" (1942) to denote a "process of industrial mutation that incessantly revolutionizes the economic structure from within, incessantly destroying the old one, incessantly creating a new one

 

[Topspin]

thats one main reason Edwards is getting his ass handed to him.

 

[Onceler]

thats one main reason Edwards is getting his ass handed to him.

You don't understand politics or political dynamics one iota. Don't try & pretend that you do, because you know you don't.

It's the reason YOU do not like him. It is not the reason he is behind in this race.

 

[Topspin]

No lorax, I know plenty. His total phoney devotion to unions and anti corporate america is why he's behind.
I like him plenty, I'm left of all of them and would be happy if he won. He said he'd stop raids on medical marij
I can realize he's getting smashed and still like him, just like I like Richardson.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

few things i noticed for the true middle class thats making it difficult to move foward:

1) insurance premiums on the rise for the working man. I witnessed first hand this working for a leading retirement company for many years. Most large companies had a period of double digit % increases year over year.
2) pensions being slashed forcing people to save more of there own money.
3) raises are nominal. Because inflation has been in check companies have been getting away with giving out 3% raises annually... But thats about to change with inflation starting to rear its ugly head.
4) Energy costs are soaring - just 5 years ago gas was $1.50 a gallon. now its over $3. someone that drives 30+miles a day now costs them double for fuel. heating and air conditioning costs are up.
5) Food prices are way up.
6) interest rates on credit is up.

Bottom line is that middle class like usual has back against the wall trying to make ends meet monthly.. WORST POSSIBLE thing right now would be to raise there taxes.

Poor middle class. You have to take out a LOAN to finance the second trip to Aruba? You must nearly be starving. I know some brats up in the delta the WHINE all day and night about living in their wooden cockroach infested, 300 square foot mansion. That must by why the middle class gives the least to charity out of any class.