Moving On From Heller

Bonestorm

Thrillhouse
So, gun advocates, what types of gun regulations do you think are reasonable? We can finally move away from the whole "the government wants to take my guns" and the nonsensical "the UN is going to take away my guns" issues and get down to business. What types of regulations would you be willing to live with?

Licensing and registration of all firearms? Background checks on all firearm sales? Tracking who buys and sells guns that end up being used in crimes? Developing and utilizing technology that would permit police to identify guns used in crimes, who purchased them and who sold them and when?

Any of the above?

In some ways Heller is good for people who in good conscience are searching for ways to accommodate lawful gun ownership and public safety since the reactionary response to gun control measures (slippery slope to outright prohibition) is pretty much off the table.

Thoughts on the matter?

My sense is that the NRA will still take the position that pretty much any gun control measure is unreasonable and will fight any and all of them until everyone that wants a gun can get a gun and easily.
 
So, gun advocates, what types of gun regulations do you think are reasonable? We can finally move away from the whole "the government wants to take my guns" and the nonsensical "the UN is going to take away my guns" issues and get down to business. What types of regulations would you be willing to live with?

Licensing and registration of all firearms? Background checks on all firearm sales? Tracking who buys and sells guns that end up being used in crimes? Developing and utilizing technology that would permit police to identify guns used in crimes, who purchased them and who sold them and when?

Any of the above?

In some ways Heller is good for people who in good conscience are searching for ways to accommodate lawful gun ownership and public safety since the reactionary response to gun control measures (slippery slope to outright prohibition) is pretty much off the table.

Thoughts on the matter?

My sense is that the NRA will still take the position that pretty much any gun control measure is unreasonable and will fight any and all of them until everyone that wants a gun can get a gun and easily.

Interesting, I was just reading this:

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_06_22-2008_06_28.shtml#1214559656

[Randy Barnett, June 27, 2008 at 5:40am] Trackbacks
So What Gun Regulations Are Reasonable? Perhaps the question most commonly asked by reporters about yesterday's decision in Heller, is how it will affect the constitutionality of other gun laws. I believe Justice Scalia signaled that regulations short of a ban should be scrutinized the way we do "time, place, and manner" regulations of speech when he equated the Second Amendment with the First: "There seems to us no doubt, on the basis of both text and history, that the Second Amendment conferred an individual right to keep and bear arms. Of course the right was not unlimited, just as the First Amendment’s right of free speech was not."

An article by Gary Barnett, a rising 3L at Georgetown Law, just appeared in the Georgetown Journal of Law and Public Policy contending that the doctrines construing the individual rights in the First Amendment should be applied analogously to the rights protected Second Amendment. (This is what he calls the Common Law Constructive Method.) He provides a very useful survey of First Amendment doctrines and then considers how they might need to be altered or refined to work in the Second Amendment context.

His article, The Reasonable Regulation of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms can be downloaded from SSRN here. Here is the abstract:

The Supreme Court has recently held in District of Columbia v. Heller that the Second Amendment protects an individual right to keep and bear arms. That decision, however, is only the beginning of the inquiry. Individual rights, via the police power, are subject to reasonable regulation. The difficult question remaining is whether a particular regulation is unreasonable, unduly infringing on an individual's right to keep and bear arms, and is therefore unconstitutional. This note proposes a workable analytic approach to addressing this question. Guided by the Common Law Constructive Method, this note takes First Amendment time, place, and manner doctrine and transposes it onto the Second Amendment.
Here is a taste of his analysis (which I have edited to omit references to First Amendment cases discussed elsewhere in the article):

The Common Law method of construction teaches an important lesson about the reasonable regulation of the right to keep and bear arms. If the very same degree of scrutiny that is applied to restrictions on speech in a pubic forum were applied to restrictions on guns in a public forum, far more gun laws would be upheld as constitutional than laws restricting speech. This is because, with gun laws, the government can almost always provide a safety rationale for enacting a particular regulation. In other words, any gun restriction can be justified on the grounds of safety. This effectively eliminates the half of the test requiring a significant government interest. In contrast, in First Amendment law, absent a clear and present danger, speech rarely threatens health and safety in the same way. This inability of the government to have an ever-present safety rationale creates an inherent protection for speech within First Amendment law. In other words, because it is more difficult for the government to articulate a significant interest, it can enact fewer restrictions. This lack of protection in the Second Amendment law should be supplemented by requiring a law be the least intrusive means to achieving the government’s stated end. . . .

Determining whether a regulation is narrowly tailored . . . is a difficult task. This is where the wisdom embedded within First Amendment law is quite useful. The Supreme Court . . . has already promulgated a feasible approach: if a government restriction results in a substantially adverse effect on the non-target group from effectively asserting their Second Amendment rights, then that restriction would be unreasonable. For example, a trigger lock requirement on a handgun, intended to combat the social harm of accidental firearm use, would most likely have a deleterious effect on an individual’s ability to protect herself effectively against an armed robber. The non-target group, those wanting to exercise their right of self defense, would, for all intents and purposes, be prohibited from effectively acting in self-defense, a constitutionally protected end. Such a requirement would not be narrowly tailored . . . and therefore would be unconstitutional. . . .

The second requirement for a government restriction to not infringe an individual’s right to keep and bear arms, and thus be reasonable, mirrors the third prong of the First Amendment analysis—that any restriction leave open ample alternative channels of communication. This requirement is designed to safeguard against the encroachment on the protected ends of the First Amendment. To ensure that this requirement is satisfied, a law must allow for the continued accomplishment of the constitutionally protected end. The same is true of the Second Amendment. Although it does not expressly protect any specific means, it does protect specific ends. Therefore, as in First Amendment law, a restriction must leave ample means of accomplishing the ends protected by the Second Amendment.​

This article is a useful starting point for anyone who wants to think seriously about how to distinguish reasonable from unreasonable gun laws.
 
So, gun advocates, what types of gun regulations do you think are reasonable? We can finally move away from the whole "the government wants to take my guns" and the nonsensical "the UN is going to take away my guns" issues and get down to business. What types of regulations would you be willing to live with?

Licensing and registration of all firearms? Background checks on all firearm sales? Tracking who buys and sells guns that end up being used in crimes? Developing and utilizing technology that would permit police to identify guns used in crimes, who purchased them and who sold them and when?

Any of the above?

In some ways Heller is good for people who in good conscience are searching for ways to accommodate lawful gun ownership and public safety since the reactionary response to gun control measures (slippery slope to outright prohibition) is pretty much off the table.

Thoughts on the matter?

My sense is that the NRA will still take the position that pretty much any gun control measure is unreasonable and will fight any and all of them until everyone that wants a gun can get a gun and easily.

I have no problem with the current background checks. I think that Florida's CCW laws should be used as a model for the rest of the nation. It involves a mandatory class, fingerprinting, more in-depth background check, and being able to show at least a minimal proficiency with the firearm at a gun range.

I am not sure the gun registration is particularly valuable. Ballistic fingerprinting could be useful for law enforcement, but could also be abused in some serious ways.

All in all, I think the best and most effective laws are already in place.

I would like to see more training classes available.
 
#1 they need to reduce the fees. They are currently increasing the fees in an attempt to dissuade people from getting FID cards. That should be illegal. A fee for the cost is fine.. but not a penalty fee.

I think someone should sue over that.
 
#1 they need to reduce the fees. They are currently increasing the fees in an attempt to dissuade people from getting FID cards. That should be illegal. A fee for the cost is fine.. but not a penalty fee.

I think someone should sue over that.

$100 every six years is hardly cost prohibitive and it was your pal Romney behind that move as part of his "no new taxes but hike the shit out of fees" policy.
 
Licensing and registration of all firearms? No.

Background checks on all firearm sales? Acceptable.

Tracking who buys and sells guns that end up being used in crimes? No.

Developing and utilizing technology that would permit police to identify guns used in crimes, who purchased them and who sold them and when? This is essentially a repeat of your last issue. So no.

Any of the above? Thoughts on the matter?

I can live with the prohibitions against felons and the "mentally ill" provided they are defined narrowly and accurately.

I think a major issue we need to look at it "Gun Free Zones" around schools and churches which in dense towns amount to a de facto ban on firearms.
 
I can live with the prohibitions against felons and the "mentally ill" provided they are defined narrowly and accurately.

I think a major issue we need to look at it "Gun Free Zones" around schools and churches which in dense towns amount to a de facto ban on firearms.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but can you site one example of a 'gun free zone' that has led to less violence?
 
I can live with the prohibitions against felons and the "mentally ill" provided they are defined narrowly and accurately.

I think a major issue we need to look at it "Gun Free Zones" around schools and churches which in dense towns amount to a de facto ban on firearms.


What's the problem with tracking who purchased guns that are used in criminal activity? I thought that those advocating unrestricted responsible gun ownership put emphasis on the responsible part.
 
I'm not saying you are wrong, but can you site one example of a 'gun free zone' that has led to less violence?

How did you get that out of my post?

Let me try to be more clear:

Because of the Gun Free Zones established in a 3 mile radius around schools and churches, many towns and dense cities effectively have their own firearm bans. You could only own a firearm in the small slices of areas not covered by the ban's 3 mile radius.

It amounts to a de facto ban on firearms, and it's something that I would love to see the Court examine.

I'm not even touching the issue of whether bans reduce violence (which they don't). I'll leave that for someone else to debate. I'm tired of wiping the floor with anti-gun nuts.
 
How did you get that out of my post?

Let me try to be more clear:

Because of the Gun Free Zones established in a 3 mile radius around schools and churches, many towns and dense cities effectively have their own firearm bans. You could only own a firearm in the small slices of areas not covered by the ban's 3 mile radius.

It amounts to a de facto ban on firearms, and it's something that I would love to see the Court examine.

You're correct, I read it wrong. My response was in the misreading, as I said in another thread to BAC, I don't like as a rule, confrontations. Which is why I wrote as I did.

Personally, seems that 'no gun zones' leave the law abiding at the mercy of the non-law abiding.
 
Licensing and registration of all firearms? Yes. I am fine with this.

Background checks on all firearm sales? Yes, I am fine with this if you are talking about buying guns at shows or stores. But it would be pretty damn hard to do so on sales between individuals.

Tracking who buys and sells guns that end up being used in crimes? This is too big brotherish in my opinion.

.

good questions though.
 
I happen to agree with you that gun control in principle disarms only the innocent, but even if I didn't believe that I would still oppose gun control on the grounds of Constitutionality.

Where Heller opens up doors is that we have finally put this "militia" nonsense to rest. We have established (as if it needed establishing) that the 2nd amendment bestows an individual right to bear arms.

Now I think the opportunity is ripe to push forward on this principle and look at things like Gun Free Zones in close proximity to each other. If you live in a city where you are never more than 3 miles from a school or church, I think there is a legitimate case to be made that your 2nd Amendment rights are being infringed.
 
I happen to agree with you that gun control in principle disarms only the innocent, but even if I didn't believe that I would still oppose gun control on the grounds of Constitutionality.

Where Heller opens up doors is that we have finally put this "militia" nonsense to rest. We have established (as if it needed establishing) that the 2nd amendment bestows an individual right to bear arms.

Now I think the opportunity is ripe to push forward on this principle and look at things like Gun Free Zones in close proximity to each other. If you live in a city where you are never more than 3 miles from a school or church, I think there is a legitimate case to be made that your 2nd Amendment rights are being infringed.

Agreed. This case opens the door to local challenges, beyond the Chicago type total bans.
 
I happen to agree with you that gun control in principle disarms only the innocent, but even if I didn't believe that I would still oppose gun control on the grounds of Constitutionality.

Where Heller opens up doors is that we have finally put this "militia" nonsense to rest. We have established (as if it needed establishing) that the 2nd amendment bestows an individual right to bear arms.

Now I think the opportunity is ripe to push forward on this principle and look at things like Gun Free Zones in close proximity to each other. If you live in a city where you are never more than 3 miles from a school or church, I think there is a legitimate case to be made that your 2nd Amendment rights are being infringed.


I agree that a city with a de facto ban on firearms through the use of gun free school zones and the like may be overturned. Then again, if you look a the so-called "Erogenous Zoning" cases, the Supreme Court has routinely upheld restrictive zoning ordinances to prohibit sex-based businesses in close proximity to churches and schools as reasonable "time, place or manner" restrictions on speech. It may end up the same with Gun Free Zones.
 
You're correct, I read it wrong. My response was in the misreading, as I said in another thread to BAC, I don't like as a rule, confrontations. Which is why I wrote as I did.

Personally, seems that 'no gun zones' leave the law abiding at the mercy of the non-law abiding.

You don’t like confrontations, and you post on political message boards? What are you, a masochist?
 
I agree that a city with a de facto ban on firearms through the use of gun free school zones and the like may be overturned. Then again, if you look a the so-called "Erogenous Zoning" cases, the Supreme Court has routinely upheld restrictive zoning ordinances to prohibit sex-based businesses in close proximity to churches and schools as reasonable "time, place or manner" restrictions on speech. It may end up the same with Gun Free Zones.


But they didn't use the "erogenous zoning" to prevent people from having sex in their homes. The Gun Free Zones do in fact attempt tp prevent people from having a gun inside their own home.
 
But they didn't use the "erogenous zoning" to prevent people from having sex in their homes. The Gun Free Zones do in fact attempt tp prevent people from having a gun inside their own home.


My understanding was that the gun free zones exempt private property within the zone such that individual gun owners could keep guns in their homes.
 
So, gun advocates, what types of gun regulations do you think are reasonable? We can finally move away from the whole "the government wants to take my guns" and the nonsensical "the UN is going to take away my guns" issues and get down to business. What types of regulations would you be willing to live with?

Licensing and registration of all firearms? Background checks on all firearm sales? Tracking who buys and sells guns that end up being used in crimes? Developing and utilizing technology that would permit police to identify guns used in crimes, who purchased them and who sold them and when?

Any of the above?

In some ways Heller is good for people who in good conscience are searching for ways to accommodate lawful gun ownership and public safety since the reactionary response to gun control measures (slippery slope to outright prohibition) is pretty much off the table.

Thoughts on the matter?

My sense is that the NRA will still take the position that pretty much any gun control measure is unreasonable and will fight any and all of them until everyone that wants a gun can get a gun and easily.
No right should be abridged unless that abridgment accomplishes the goal of preventing harm from misuse of a right. That means ACTUAL misuse, not potential misuse. As such, a law can be written forbidding speech designed to instigate a riot. But the law cannot forbid a person from standing on a street corner speaking their political opinion JUST IN CASE (s)he says something that will instigate a riot.

When talking about any law which places limits on our rights or emplaces requirements to exercise a right, the central question should be what does that limit or requirement accomplish?

Gun registration and licensing: what does that requirement accomplish? How does the state knowing what is in a person's gun cabinet make society safer? If one is a law abiding citizen, does knowing they have two rifles and a handgun prevent misuse of those weapons? If one is a criminal intending to cause harm with their firearm(s), are they going to follow the law requiring registration? Registration and licensing does not, as far as I can see, accomplish any definable goal preventing misuse of the right to keep and bear arms. Therefore I am against placing that requirement on our 2nd amendment rights.

Background checks: A criminal background check would prevent a firearms dealer from accidentally selling a firearm to a person whose right has been removed by due process. Even though it would not prevent unscrupulous dealers from ignoring the requirement, nor in any way affect the black market of firearms, there is, none the less, a definable purpose and demonstrable effect (most firearms dealers are honest and do not WANT to sell to criminals). As such, criminal background checks would be an acceptable requirement to exercise 2nd amendment rights.

Tracking the history of a firearm used in a crime: They already do that - or at least try to. It is a natural part of the process of solving a crime involving the use of a firearm. Most often it leads nowhere. Technology which would enhance the ability to track the history of a firearm would be foiled the first time a person sold their 9mm through a newspaper ad. Personally, I would not oppose the idea that such sales be limited, requiring a licensed dealer as an intermediary in private sales. Not sure how it should be handled, though since a dealer would naturally want compensation for their services, forcing an individual to lose some value in the sale of their personal property. Something would have to be worked out to be equitable to the firearm owner, and the dealer.

(Side note: I believe the restrictions on dealer licenses has gotten too narrow, and too expensive, putting many honest dealers unnecessarily out of business.)

Bottom line: it does not matter if the right/liberty has to do with speech, privacy, or keep and bear arms; any restrictions or violations of those rights MUST be aimed tightly and specifically at preventing and/or reacting to misuse of the right. No blanket restriction whose intent is to prevent POSSIBLE misuse by limiting proper use should never be tolerated.
 
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