Mr. Spock Presents An Interesting Free Will Problem

AProudLefty said:
We are a part of the universe. That's a verifiable fact. We are rolling like those rolling stones. (Nope not talking about the band LOL)


Einstein said that God doesn't roll dice. Quantum Mechanics says we do. Are we a part of the Universe flowing through with no choice and free will, despite our perception?
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I like the way your mind works.
I have a slightly different insight.

I do not think Einstein and Heisenburg are a good metaphor for free will versus determinism.

Einstein's dice quote has traditionally been taken a little out of context.
The universe in classical physical is measurable and deterministic. The quantum universe at the subparticle scale can only be described in terms of probabilities. I do not think his dice quote implicates the entire program of quantum mechanics. I might be wrong, but I think Einstein came around to accepting quantum theory.
Einstein did not actually believe in a personal God, and I believe Einstein was specifically referring to quantum entanglement, aka "spooky action at a distance".

To me, a better metaphor for free will versus determinism comes out of philosophy, rather than science. Hobbes & Marx versus Aquinas & Epicurus. The philosophical match ups one could dream up are virtually endless! I mean, the determinism of Hobbes kind of freaks me out, but I imagine he is a hero to highly educated conservatives!
 
AProudLefty said:
Laws of physics.
Hence the question. Quantum Mechanics lends the theory that the universe might not be so deterministic after all.
That's why I mentioned Einstein and his dice.
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Quantum Mechanics is physics. You have just put yourself in paradox. Which is it, dude?
1) The 'laws of physics' says the universe is deterministic.
2) Quantum mechanics, part of physics, says the universe is not deterministic.
 
Into the Night said:
Quantum Mechanics is physics. You have just put yourself in paradox. Which is it, dude?
1) The 'laws of physics' says the universe is deterministic.
2) Quantum mechanics, part of physics, says the universe is not deterministic.
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:palm: I know it's physics.

Newtonian (Classical) mechanics is deterministic. Then there's QM that seems to differ.
 
Cypress said:
I like the way your mind works.
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He put himself in a paradox. You like this?
Cypress said:
I have a slightly different insight.

I do not think Einstein and Heisenburg are a good metaphor for free will versus determinism.
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Neither discussed determinism.
Cypress said:
Einstein's dice quote has traditionally been taken a little out of context.
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True.
Cypress said:
The universe in classical physical is measurable and deterministic.
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Some parts are measurable, but it is not deterministic. Saying that something is two inches long is not a prediction of anything.
Cypress said:
The quantum universe at the subparticle scale can only be described in terms of probabilities.
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No, it's measurable as well.
Cypress said:
I do not think his dice quote implicates the entire program of quantum mechanics.
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It obviously can't, since Einstein isn't alive right now.
Cypress said:
I might be wrong, but I think Einstein came around to accepting quantum theory.
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Considering that he was responsible for starting quantum theory, you might be right! :D
Cypress said:
Einstein did not actually believe in a personal God, and I believe Einstein was specifically referring to quantum entanglement, aka "spooky action at a distance".
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Einstein didn't believe in spooks either.
Cypress said:
To me, a better metaphor for free will versus determinism comes out of philosophy, rather than science. Hobbes & Marx versus Aquinas & Epicurus.
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None of these philosophies have anything to do with a deterministic universe. They all discuss politics and justifications for forms of governments.
Cypress said:
The philosophical match ups one could dream up are virtually endless! I mean, the determinism of Hobbes kind of freaks me out, but I imagine he is a hero to highly educated conservatives!
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Hobbes argued for a dictatorship. Hardly what conservatives in the U.S.are proposing today. That would be the Democrats wanting something like that.
 
AProudLefty said:
:palm: I know it's physics.

Newtonian (Classical) mechanics is deterministic. Then there's QM that seems to differ.
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What makes Newton mechanics determistic? What about Kepler's mechanics? or Otto's mechanics? Or Bournelli? or any mechanics? What is deterministic about F=mA?

You are still locked in paradox. Which is it, dude?
 
Into the Night said:
Yet some laws of physics have been falsified. That changes them. Just what is the 'course of the universe'? Is it going somewhere?
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The laws haven't changed; people have just furthered their understanding of it. According to orbital mathematics, the universe is going somewhere.
 
Into the Night said:
Quantum Mechanics is physics. You have just put yourself in paradox. Which is it, dude?
1) The 'laws of physics' says the universe is deterministic.
2) Quantum mechanics, part of physics, says the universe is not deterministic.
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Even with your ignorant assumption of QM randomness, randomness does not support the doctrine of Free Will.
 
Dark Soul said:
All the stars and planets and moons are moving around in predetermined paths...
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The universe is not a star, moon, or planet.
The thing that each of these is orbiting is also moving, so how are you predetermining the paths?

There is no absolute zero speed. It's time for you to leave your comfortable Newtonian model of the universe and entertain the concepts of relativity.
 
Into the Night said:
The universe is not a star, moon, or planet.
The thing that each of these is orbiting is also moving, so how are you predetermining the paths?

There is no absolute zero speed. It's time for you to leave your comfortable Newtonian model of the universe and entertain the concepts of relativity.
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Uh, ok.
 
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