Nietzsche's argument against altruism.

H

Hume

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Nietzsche understands that a lot of people who talk about altruism aren’t altruistic at all. As he says about the German political leaders of his day, he finds it unbelievable that they can go to church every Sunday and take communion, because they’re the most unChristian people on the face of the earth. A high value is set on altruism, while any sign of pure self-concern is disparaged. It’s a pretty common moral stance, even when people don’t actually act on it. People who are not altruistic will rarely own up to being selfish.

Brian Leiter | Issue 163 | Philosophy Now

Brian Leiter is Karl N. Llewellyn Professor of Jurisprudence at the University of Chicago, and founder and Director of Chicago’s Center for Law, Philosophy & Human Values. Angela Tan chatted with him about Nietzsche.
philosophynow.org philosophynow.org
 
Does altruism actually exist?

If I VALUE altruism it means that it increases my happiness to act in an altruistic way. I am "helping" someone and that makes me feel "good". So I am gaining a benefit to myself by acting altruistically which effectively makes it non-altruistic.

The only truly altruistic action would have to be taken when one desperately does NOT want to take it and finds NO VALUE in taking the action.

This is not to say that there aren't good and bad actions and ones that are closer to altruism than others, but whether one is capable of pure altruism seems to be a legitimate question.
 
Hume said:
I do not see the connection.
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Socialism requires everyone in a society to be altruistic. You have to be willing to freely give up fruits of your labor to others. So, if you are highly productive you are expected to remain highly productive and hand over a good portion of what you produce to people who are less productive, or even non-productive because in Socialism equal outcomes are the norm. From those who can to those who can't.

The result has been in every--EVERY--Socialistic society that force is required to make those that do more give to those who do little or nothing. The inevitable result of that is those who can stop doing and those who can't don't start doing. Socialism leads inevitably to sloth, laziness, and being unproductive since there is no value in hard work or overachieving.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
This is the core, underlying, reason why Socialism will never work.
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Socialism can be considered a moderated form of altruism, but, again, that altruism also brings benefits to the people who support the system.

If I give up a little of my $$$$ so that someone else may have a better life, presumably I will gain an advantage as well since our society will be more equitable and decent for all the members and if I find myself in need --which happens to everyone from time to time-- I will have the comfort of knowing I will be protected as well.

In a very real sense social animals are, by definition, socialist to some greater or lesser extent.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
The inevitable result of that is those who can stop doing and those who can't don't start doing.
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Having worked with quite a few people in corporations in social democracies in Europe I can safely say that is NOT an inevitable result. The people are just as hard working as we are. The only difference is; they don't face utter ruin if they get ill.

T. A. Gardner said:
Socialism leads inevitably to sloth, laziness, and being unproductive since there is no value in hard work or overachieving.
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Sounds like you might want to get a passport.
 
Obtenebrator said:
Socialism can be considered a moderated form of altruism, but, again, that altruism also brings benefits to the people who support the system.

If I give up a little of my $$$$ so that someone else may have a better life, presumably I will gain an advantage as well since our society will be more equitable and decent for all the members and if I find myself in need --which happens to everyone from time to time-- I will have the comfort of knowing I will be protected as well.

In a very real sense social animals are, by definition, socialist to some greater or lesser extent.
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On the other hand, I do more and receive more compensation. I choose not to give that to the lazy, stupid, or otherwise unproductive. I can choose who I might want to give my generosity. In Socialism, the government comes and gives me no choice about how much or to whom the wealth they confiscate goes. I am angered that my wealth is being given to losers who do not deserve it.

In a very real sense, Socialism is theft.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Taxes do not have to go to wealth redistribution. They can go to the common good, like roads, a military, or other public functions everyone--including myself--benefit from.
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Right, so socialism is like every other political system in that way.
 
Obtenebrator said:
Having worked with quite a few people in corporations in social democracies in Europe I can safely say that is NOT an inevitable result. The people are just as hard working as we are. The only difference is; they don't face utter ruin if they get ill.
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Unemployment across all of Europe is much higher than in the US. Europeans generally work far fewer hours per week than Americans. Confiscatory tax programs, heavy doses of Socialism / welfare, and acceptance of a lower standard of living in general result.

www.dallasfed.org

Tax, transfer programs explain why Western Europeans work less than Americans

Western Europe differs from the United States not only in consumption tax, income tax and social security systems but also in the total factor productivity—a measure of productivity—for market production in which most European countries are low.
www.dallasfed.org www.dallasfed.org
Obtenebrator said:
Sounds like you might want to get a passport.
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I have one.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
On the other hand, I do more and receive more compensation. I choose not to give that to the lazy, stupid, or otherwise unproductive. I can choose who I might want to give my generosity. In Socialism, the government comes and gives me no choice about how much or to whom the wealth they confiscate goes. I am angered that my wealth is being given to losers who do not deserve it.

In a very real sense, Socialism is theft.
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So there is absolutely nothing in our society that you enjoy the use of? You don't use public roads?

In all reality you live with socialism every single day and it is part and parcel of what you enjoy and use and gain advantages from. I understand your point that you don't want MORE socialism but don't for a second think you are free and clear of it. I will venture to say you enjoy quite a bit of it.

But that point aside: given that social animals always utilize some form of socialism, is it an altruistic action? Not necessarily. We all work to support the safety net with the HOPE that it is for OTHERS but with the REALITY being that it will probably aid US at some point. As such I think it is not altruism per se.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Unemployment across all of Europe is much higher than in the US. Europeans generally work far fewer hours per week than Americans. Confiscatory tax programs, heavy doses of Socialism / welfare, and acceptance of a lower standard of living in general result.
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Yeah, but honestly I never saw anything like the horrors the RIght imagine in Social Democracies. I saw functional societies, happy people, effective businesses that made lots of money.

Again, the only difference is: these poor suckers don't spend every day terrified that they will wind up bankrupt because they got ill.
 
Obtenebrator said:
So there is absolutely nothing in our society that you enjoy the use of? You don't use public roads?
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Public roads are a common good, not Socialistic. Socialism is specifically the transfer of wealth from those who have to those that don't. Welfare, universal public healthcare, handouts, and the like are Socialist. Public roads, the military, law enforcement, the court system, benefit everyone and aren't selective in who gets to use them.
Obtenebrator said:
In all reality you live with socialism every single day and it is part and parcel of what you enjoy and use and gain advantages from. I understand your point that you don't want MORE socialism but don't for a second think you are free and clear of it. I will venture to say you enjoy quite a bit of it.

But that point aside: given that social animals always utilize some form of socialism, is it an altruistic action? Not necessarily. We all work to support the safety net with the HOPE that it is for OTHERS but with the REALITY being that it will probably aid US at some point. As such I think it is not altruism per se.
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The more Socialism a nation has, the less power and freedom the citizen has. Socialism requires altruism to effectively work, and people as a rule are not altruistic.
 
Hume said:
Nietzsche understands that a lot of people who talk about altruism aren’t altruistic at all. As he says about the German political leaders of his day, he finds it unbelievable that they can go to church every Sunday and take communion, because they’re the most unChristian people on the face of the earth. A high value is set on altruism, while any sign of pure self-concern is disparaged. It’s a pretty common moral stance, even when people don’t actually act on it. People who are not altruistic will rarely own up to being selfish.
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I can understand this point. It seems a bit facile, though. Of course people will want to imagine themselves more altruistic than they actually are. Everyone wishes to see themselves as better than they probably are in general.

Look on this forum. There are some posters who are the worst trolls on the internet and they complain about everyone else's evils.

Most of us lack real self-awareness, but at other times we actively avoid knowing what we are REALLY like.
 
Obtenebrator said:
Distinction without a difference.
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Wrong. I pointed out the difference. Things that the government does that have a common good are things the government should be doing. Wealth redistribution to those in society that do less or nothing from those that do a lot is detrimental to society. You are propping up sloth, laziness, incompetence, and stupidity.
 

T. A. Gardner said:
You are propping up sloth, laziness, incompetence, and stupidity.
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I've never seen as many bad people in our country as the Right seems to see. Yeah I know people will abuse any system....I just don't see so many people getting stuff they didn't earn that it upsets me.

Maybe we should stick to the OP. Sorry for the diversion here.
 
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