No basic rights for felons who've paid their debt?

On Restrictions, that's true to a very small extent, such as in the first amendment... I would oppose 99% of any gun control laws, in fact the only one I support is the felon restriction... I do agree with the Locke quote however...

I'm always reluctant to get into the gun control debate with Americans. I do (in other places) so when I see the need but I don't just hop in and feel free to tell Americans how they should deal with what is a purely domestic issue. But I will say that Americans are very tolerant of the opinions of others - if it were around the other way I guarantee we (Australians) would be in high dudgeon.

But for what it's worth, while I am a strong proponent of gun control in my own country I would, if I lived in the States, be at the front of the queue/line to get my ccw permit (and I would get a wheelgun, I'm used to revolvers).
 
Can anyone please tell me any other possible definition of the word liberty that "freedom from restraint"? Could you quit pussy-footing around, and stop changing the meaning of sacred words so that you don't have to disagree with their positive connotations?

I like to use the freedom from/freedom to formulation. It confuses libertarians and conservatives, so it must be good.
 
For pointing out what people think who consistently vote in representatives that will continue what you are complaining about?

Seriously. When did you become so childish?

:/

Like I care what anyone else thinks. If I did, I wouldn't have posted this thread, or anything else mildly offensive to anyone.
 
:/

Like I care what anyone else thinks. If I did, I wouldn't have posted this thread, or anything else mildly offensive to anyone.
Well, since you asked. I'll give you my personal opinion on this one.

There are certain things that should take away your freedom for life. I'll use child rape as an example, not teen rape, child rape. They should never get out at all. Just like with such examples there are certain crimes where they have taken so much from others that they should have to pay with this right for the rest of their lives as well.

Now, if we do let out somebody who took away another's right to life, should they regain the right to help make decisions that will effect the rest of society? I think there are some things that even if we let them out should be bad enough that they don't get to vote again. But only some things.

All that being stated, IMO in almost every other case than murder or manslaughter they should be able to vote once they have fulfilled their debt to society.
 
Well, since you asked. I'll give you my personal opinion on this one.

There are certain things that should take away your freedom for life. I'll use child rape as an example, not teen rape, child rape. They should never get out at all. Just like with such examples there are certain crimes where they have taken so much from others that they should have to pay with this right for the rest of their lives as well.

Now, if we do let out somebody who took away another's right to life, should they regain the right to help make decisions that will effect the rest of society? I think there are some things that even if we let them out should be bad enough that they don't get to vote again. But only some things.

All that being stated, IMO in almost every other case than murder or manslaughter they should be able to vote once they have fulfilled their debt to society.

Voting rights? Hmmmm...

I don't view taking away voting rights as a "punishment". The only people who I'd really care to have them restored to are those who've committed non-violent crimes. For people who've committed violent crimes, my rationale is, if they're voting, they're participating in society again. Which is a good sign.

For murderers, I could really care less. In most cases they really shouldn't be out of prison to begin with.
 
Voting rights? Hmmmm...

I don't view taking away voting rights as a "punishment". The only people who I'd really care to have them restored to are those who've committed non-violent crimes. For people who've committed violent crimes, my rationale is, if they're voting, they're participating in society again. Which is a good sign.

For murderers, I could really care less. In most cases they really shouldn't be out of prison to begin with.
It isn't really for "punishment", it just seems like a logical extension. They've taken every single right of another if they have killed them and in so doing have shown a selfishness that points to an inability to make good choices.

I'd prefer people who exhibit such inability to simply have no chance to effect the outcome of an election. That and the small amount of "punishment" can be a constant reminder of their inexplicably stupid choice that led them in that direction.
 
To me, punishment isn't really about making someone "pay". Punishment is for deterrence and incapacitation. Reform would be the nice way out but right now it's just been a huge failure.
 
The felon restriction would actually stand up to a strict scrutiny evaluation. Strict Scrutiny has nothing to do with reasonable restrictions. To pass strict scrutiny you have to show a compelling government interest in the restriction of the right. I am not sure that restricting ALL felons meets that, but I am sure that the Supreme Court would not split hairs so fine. Personally I don't think someone that embezzled from their employer should be restricted from owning a handgun, but someone that committed a murder, even manslaughter, shows some judgement problems and shouldn't have a gun.

Second the restriction has to be narrowly tailored to achieve the compelling government interest. it can't be over inclusive, meaning that misdemeanants should not have their rights restricted, though under the Brady Bill if you are convicted of SOME misdemeanors you can lose your 2d amendment rights.

Lastly, the law must use the least restrictive means necessary in achieving the goals of the compelling governmental interest. The restriction of felons owning fire arms is fairly non-restrictive.

Like I said, I think that the government has a compelling governmental interest in keeping guns away from violent felons and sex offenders, but not all felons. Here in NM our restriction under state law is only for 10 years. After that you can own a gun.
 
The felon restriction would actually stand up to a strict scrutiny evaluation. Strict Scrutiny has nothing to do with reasonable restrictions. To pass strict scrutiny you have to show a compelling government interest in the restriction of the right. I am not sure that restricting ALL felons meets that, but I am sure that the Supreme Court would not split hairs so fine. Personally I don't think someone that embezzled from their employer should be restricted from owning a handgun, but someone that committed a murder, even manslaughter, shows some judgement problems and shouldn't have a gun.

Second the restriction has to be narrowly tailored to achieve the compelling government interest. it can't be over inclusive, meaning that misdemeanants should not have their rights restricted, though under the Brady Bill if you are convicted of SOME misdemeanors you can lose your 2d amendment rights.

Lastly, the law must use the least restrictive means necessary in achieving the goals of the compelling governmental interest. The restriction of felons owning fire arms is fairly non-restrictive.

Like I said, I think that the government has a compelling governmental interest in keeping guns away from violent felons and sex offenders, but not all felons. Here in NM our restriction under state law is only for 10 years. After that you can own a gun.

Yeah my argument was pretty much bullshit, I realized after I wrote it.
 
To me, punishment isn't really about making someone "pay". Punishment is for deterrence and incapacitation. Reform would be the nice way out but right now it's just been a huge failure.
Like I said, it isn't always about punishment. Sometimes it is about justice. Taking every right from somebody else tends to mean, in the interest of justice, you should have some removed from yourself as well.
 
Now then, why are felons denied the right to own a gun, which is every bit the same as free speech, by conservatives? Anyone have the answer?
your first mistake is thinking that JUST conservatives wanted this little restriction of rights implemented.

It seems - just a little - that conservatives are advocating a restriction *gasp*. Yes, a reasonable restriction. In doing so, they are candidly admitting that the second ammendment isn't exactly the same as the first ammendment, and that it isn't even absolute.

More gasps.

This is interesting.

again, this isn't just conservatives, although the liberals are more vociferous about restricting the 2nd.
 
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