Obamacare Advisors: Save Money By Eliminating Hippocratic Oath
- Thread starter red states rule
- Start date
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
red states rule
New member
Yes it is true - and it is common knowledge for anyone who has an once on brain matter
Like DNC you make this way to easy
Breaking It Down: Who’s Uninsured?
The number of the uninsured who aren’t citizens is nearly 10 million on its own, invalidating all the claims of 40+ million “Americans” without health insurance.
“It’s really indefensible that we now have more than 45 million uninsured Americans, 9 million of whom are children, and the vast majority of whom are from working families,” said Sen. Hillary Clinton in a May 31 speech.
It was typical spin and easy to find. ABC medical expert Dr. Tim Johnson cited the incorrect data as he praised a "bold" and "politically brilliant" universal coverage plan on the April 26 “Good Morning America.”
“It’s bold because it does propose to cover all Americans, including the 47 million now who are uninsured, within five years,” said Johnson.
In his propagandumentary “SiCKO” that favored the socialist health care systems of Canada, Britain, France and Cuba, Michael Moore made the fantastic claim that almost 50 million Americans are uninsured.
“SiCKO: There are nearly 50 million Americans without health insurance,” quoted Moore’s Web site.
However, the Census Bureau report “Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance Coverage in the United States: 2005,” puts the initial number of uninsured people living in the country at 46.577 million.
A closer look at that report reveals the Census data include 9.487 million people who are “not a citizen.” Subtracting the 10 million non-Americans, the number of uninsured Americans falls to roughly 37 million.
Moore should have paid attention to that fact, since he agrees that being “an American” matters to get health insurance.
“That’s the only preexisting condition that should exist. I am an American. That’s it,” said Moore in footage aired by ABC’s “Nightline” on June 13.
That isn’t the only problem with the numbers currently being used.
Moore’s Trouble with the Facts
Recently, CNN’s Dr. Sanjay Gupta accused Michael Moore of “fudging” some numbers in his recent film “SiCKO.” This sparked a temper tantrum by Moore who threatened to become the network’s “worst nightmare” if they didn’t apologize and recant.
CNN did “correct and apologize” for one transcription error, but stood by Gupta’s statement “CNN’s numbers and Moore’s numbers aren’t far off, but we believe ours are a fairer comparison.
In his film and television appearances, Moore left out quite a bit of information about the uninsured.
On his Web site, Moore claimed the Census Bureau had “underreported” the number of people without health insurance.
But Cheryl Hill Lee, a co-author of the Census Bureau study Moore was citing, told the Business & Media Institute that the data showed the exact opposite of what Moore said.
The Census “underreported” the number of people covered by health insurance – meaning that more people have insurance than the report suggests. The Census also underreported the number of people covered by Medicare and Medicaid.
They Can’t Afford Insurance …
Many of the same people pushing the incorrect numbers of uninsured Americans also claim that these people cannot “afford” insurance
“And when you’ve got 47 million people in this country with no health insurance, they don’t go to the doctor because they can’t afford it,” Moore said on CNN’s “Larry King Live” July 10.
Katie Couric echoed those sentiment on the CBS “Evening News” May 23.
“The number of Americans with no health insurance is continuing to grow as more and more employers say they can’t afford to offer group insurance … People who try to buy insurance on their own often find the price beyond their reach,” said Couric as she introduced a two-part “investigation of the health insurance industry.”
But according to the same Census report, there are 8.3 million uninsured people who make between $50,000 and $74,999 per year and 8.74 million who make more than $75,000 a year. That’s roughly 17 million people who ought to be able to “afford” health insurance because they make substantially more than the median household income of $46,326.
On the July 13 “Larry King Live,” Gupta did make that point, providing more context than Moore and most journalists about the affordability of health insurance.
Subtracting non-citizens and those who can afford their own insurance but choose not to purchase it, about 20 million people are left – less than 7 percent of the population.
“Many Americans are uninsured by choice,” wrote Dr. David Gratzer in his book “The Cure: How Capitalism Can Save American Health Care.” Gratzer cited a study of the “nonpoor uninsured” from the California Healthcare Foundation.
“Why the lack of insurance [among people who own homes and computers]? One clue is that 60 percent reported being in excellent health or very good health,” explained Gratzer.
A Lie that Promotes Big Government
Moore, Clinton and Obama have used the lie about 40-some million uninsured Americans to promote universal health insurance plans. Moore asserted in his film that providing health insurance to everyone is a moral and even religious obligation.
The mainstream media have played along, championing “ambitious” universal coverage plans and referring to the U.S. system as “deeply flawed.”
“California’s ambitious plan to make health insurance available to almost everyone in the state is getting a lot of attention all over the country, and here’s why. According to the latest figures, the number of uninsured Americans has grown to more than 46 million,” said Katie Couric on the “CBS Evening News” January 9.
Journalists’ failure to question that high figure has furthered the cause of nationalized care.
“Proponents of universal health care often use the 46-million figure -- without context or qualification. It creates the false impression that a huge percentage of the population has fallen through the cracks,” Gratzer told BMI. “Again, that’s not to suggest that there is no problem, but it's very different than the universal-care crowd describes.”
Dr. Grace-Marie Turner, a BMI adviser and president of the Galen Institute, agreed that “the number [on uninsured] is inflated and affects the debate.”
Turner also pointed out that “45 percent of the uninsured are going to have insurance within four months [according to the Congressional Budget Office],” because many are transitioning between jobs and most people get health insurance through their employers.
So what is the true extent of the uninsured “crisis?” The Kaiser Family Foundation, a liberal non-profit frequently quoted by the media, puts the number of uninsured Americans who do not qualify for current government programs and make less than $50,000 a year between 13.9 million and 8.2 million. That is a much smaller figure than the media report.
Kaiser’s 8.2 million figure for the chronically uninsured only includes those uninsured for two years or more. It is also worth noting, that, 45 percent of uninsured people will be uninsured for less than four months according to the Congressional Budget Office.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/printer/2007/20070718153509.aspx
C
Cancel4
Guest
The powerful and well-financed health care lobby has employed one basic theme in trying to stop health care reform: scare the hell out of Americans by decrying a "government takeover" of health care.
They want you to believe we don't need a public plan like Medicare to provide a choice for individuals who currently can't afford their expensive insurance.
After 400 mergers involving health insurers over the last 13 years, concentration has gone up in local markets across the country. The single largest provider of small group coverage (for small businesses, for example) controlled a median market share of 47% in 2008.
The AMA says 94% of insurance markets in the US are highly concentrated.
These changes (mergers) were supposed to make the industry more efficient, but instead, premiums have skyrocketed.
Premiums went up, on average, more than 87% over the past six years.
Profits at 10 of the country's largest publicly traded health insurance companies in 2007 rose from $2.4 to 12.9 billion (+428%) from 2000 to 2007.
The CEOs of these companies in 2007 alone collected an average compensation of $11.9 million each.
These same CEOs want you to think that a government health care solution is less efficient than their privatized industry.
Unfortunately, they are lying. From 1997 to 2006, private health insurance spending per enrollee grew at an annual rate of 7.3% while that of Medicare was only 4.6%, or more than one-third less.
The concentration of insurance markets and the lack of private competition provide compelling reasons for Congress to establish a public plan as an option for those seeking insurance.
Give consumers a real choice.
The public plan would provide both a benchmark for private plans and much needed competition in what are now perversely concentrated markets.
That certainly offers better hope for bringing down prices and improving care.
They want you to believe we don't need a public plan like Medicare to provide a choice for individuals who currently can't afford their expensive insurance.
After 400 mergers involving health insurers over the last 13 years, concentration has gone up in local markets across the country. The single largest provider of small group coverage (for small businesses, for example) controlled a median market share of 47% in 2008.
The AMA says 94% of insurance markets in the US are highly concentrated.
These changes (mergers) were supposed to make the industry more efficient, but instead, premiums have skyrocketed.
Premiums went up, on average, more than 87% over the past six years.
Profits at 10 of the country's largest publicly traded health insurance companies in 2007 rose from $2.4 to 12.9 billion (+428%) from 2000 to 2007.
The CEOs of these companies in 2007 alone collected an average compensation of $11.9 million each.
These same CEOs want you to think that a government health care solution is less efficient than their privatized industry.
Unfortunately, they are lying. From 1997 to 2006, private health insurance spending per enrollee grew at an annual rate of 7.3% while that of Medicare was only 4.6%, or more than one-third less.
The concentration of insurance markets and the lack of private competition provide compelling reasons for Congress to establish a public plan as an option for those seeking insurance.
Give consumers a real choice.
The public plan would provide both a benchmark for private plans and much needed competition in what are now perversely concentrated markets.
That certainly offers better hope for bringing down prices and improving care.
red states rule
New member
Under Obamacare, consumers wil NOT have a choice. They must take coverage, and what is offered - period
Care wuill be rationed, and will approval will be "cost effective"
Cost will NOT go down. It is impossible to ass 45 million to the ins rolls and lower the cost. The added costs can't be covered even with the massive tax increases - it will add to the deficit and the debt
Care wuill be rationed, and will approval will be "cost effective"
Cost will NOT go down. It is impossible to ass 45 million to the ins rolls and lower the cost. The added costs can't be covered even with the massive tax increases - it will add to the deficit and the debt
christiefan915
Catalyst
Why would we give any credibility to a person who's been fact-checked on several sites and found to be a pants-on-fire liar?
"Republicans have found many reasons to oppose the Democrats' health care proposal, but this is one of the oddest.
Betsy McCaughey, chairman of the Committee to Reduce Infection Deaths and former lieutenant governor of New York state, says the bill goes too far to encourage senior citizens to end their lives.
On the radio show of former Sen. Fred Thompson on July 16, 2009, McCaughey said that, "the Congress would make it mandatory -- absolutely require -- that every five years people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them how to end their life sooner."
She said those sessions would help the elderly learn how to "decline nutrition, how to decline being hydrated, how to go in to hospice care... all to do what's in society's best interest or in your family's best interest and cut your life short."
<snip>
"McCaughey's comments are "not just wrong, they are cruel," said Dau. "We want to make sure people are making the right decision. If some one wants to take every life saving measure, that's their call. Others will decide it's not worth going through this trauma just for themselves and their families, and that's their decision, too."
Both Keyserling and Dau were particularly troubled that McCaughey insisted - three times, to be exact - that the sessions would be mandatory, which they are not."
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/23/betsy-mccaughey/mccaughey-claims-end-life-counseling-will-be-requi/
"Betsy McCaughey, a Republican former lieutenant governor of New York, claims that the bill creates a "new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology." Not true. The office was created in 2004 by President Bush. McCaughey, an adjunct fellow at the conservative Hudson Institute, also says the office "will monitor treatments" and " 'guide' your doctor's decisions." But that's nothing new. Bush's initiative called for creating a health IT system to transmit information to "guide medical decisions." (McCaughey became a Democrat in 1997 and ran for governor of New York against her former boss, George Pataki.)
http://www.factcheck.org/politics/doctors_orders.html
red states rule
New member
Why would we give any credibility to a person who's been fact-checked on several sites and found to be a pants-on-fire liar?
"Republicans have found many reasons to oppose the Democrats' health care proposal, but this is one of the oddest.
Betsy McCaughey, chairman of the Committee to Reduce Infection Deaths and former lieutenant governor of New York state, says the bill goes too far to encourage senior citizens to end their lives.
On the radio show of former Sen. Fred Thompson on July 16, 2009, McCaughey said that, "the Congress would make it mandatory -- absolutely require -- that every five years people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them how to end their life sooner."
She said those sessions would help the elderly learn how to "decline nutrition, how to decline being hydrated, how to go in to hospice care... all to do what's in society's best interest or in your family's best interest and cut your life short."
<snip>
"McCaughey's comments are "not just wrong, they are cruel," said Dau. "We want to make sure people are making the right decision. If some one wants to take every life saving measure, that's their call. Others will decide it's not worth going through this trauma just for themselves and their families, and that's their decision, too."
Both Keyserling and Dau were particularly troubled that McCaughey insisted - three times, to be exact - that the sessions would be mandatory, which they are not."
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jul/23/betsy-mccaughey/mccaughey-claims-end-life-counseling-will-be-requi/
"Betsy McCaughey, a Republican former lieutenant governor of New York, claims that the bill creates a "new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology." Not true. The office was created in 2004 by President Bush. McCaughey, an adjunct fellow at the conservative Hudson Institute, also says the office "will monitor treatments" and " 'guide' your doctor's decisions." But that's nothing new. Bush's initiative called for creating a health IT system to transmit information to "guide medical decisions." (McCaughey became a Democrat in 1997 and ran for governor of New York against her former boss, George Pataki.)
http://www.factcheck.org/politics/doctors_orders.html
So the actual contents of the House bill is not credible?
Shock: Inside the Healthcare Bill
Following the mad recommendations of Peter Singer made in NYT's Sunday magazine, it pays to take a look at what is actually in the healthcare bill.
It's worse than you can possibly imagine. Somehow, it manages to be Singer on steroids. Who wrote this bill. It has Singer's footprints all over it.
Peter Fleckstein (aka Fleckman) is reading it and has been posting on Twitter his findings. This is from his postings (Note: All comments are Fleckman's)
Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure!!
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benes u get
Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!
Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!
PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided 2 ALL non US citizens, illegal or otherwise
Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access 2 individs finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer
PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan 4 retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.
PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!
PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps 2 sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed
-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice
pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop
pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - Doctors/ #AMA - The Govt will tell YOU what u can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.pdf
and
http://economicpolicyjournal.com/
C
Cancel4
Guest
Reform of the health care system is long overdue.
If you’re unemployed, or work for a small business that offers no health plan, or someone in your family has a “pre-existing condition,” your concern might be how to get health insurance at any cost.
The current employer-based health insurance system, in which health insurance premiums are untaxed income, is one of the main causes of health care price increases.
We may need to replace the tax exclusion or restructure it so that patients have more incentives to control costs.
In that way, the purchase of health insurance would be similar to the purchase of home or auto insurance, services that many consumers appear able to purchase without major problems.
We can no longer afford to put health care reform on hold.
The cost of health care now causes a bankruptcy in America every 30 seconds.
If we want to create jobs and rebuild our economy, then we must address the crushing cost of health care this year, in this Administration. Making investments in reform now, investments that will dramatically lower costs, won’t add to our budget deficits in the long-term, rather, it is one of the best ways to reduce them.
If you’re unemployed, or work for a small business that offers no health plan, or someone in your family has a “pre-existing condition,” your concern might be how to get health insurance at any cost.
The current employer-based health insurance system, in which health insurance premiums are untaxed income, is one of the main causes of health care price increases.
We may need to replace the tax exclusion or restructure it so that patients have more incentives to control costs.
In that way, the purchase of health insurance would be similar to the purchase of home or auto insurance, services that many consumers appear able to purchase without major problems.
We can no longer afford to put health care reform on hold.
The cost of health care now causes a bankruptcy in America every 30 seconds.
If we want to create jobs and rebuild our economy, then we must address the crushing cost of health care this year, in this Administration. Making investments in reform now, investments that will dramatically lower costs, won’t add to our budget deficits in the long-term, rather, it is one of the best ways to reduce them.
red states rule
New member
red states rule
New member
Like DNC it is clear you are a troll and have no desire for a conversation. This is typical of liberals and Obama hacks who can't seem to overcome those pesky facts that get in the way of their tax and spend policies
C
Cancel5
Guest
Exactly, stupid sick and old people, where the hell do they get off? Damn children for getting leukemia when their parents don't have insurance or enough money to pay out of pocket. Let's kill them!
red states rule
New member
Eh if you guys are so worried about the old and sick people - why are you supporting Obamacare where care wil be rationed, and old people will be treated only is the treatment is "cost efective"?
Fish
New member
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
I have seen right-wingers advocate eliminating overuse of unnecessary and useless procedures as well before. Oddly, it only seems to be when Obama proposes it that he's telling people to murder elderly.
Doctors should treat their patients to the best of their ability. If they give them treatments with no medical benefit, they are not treating them to the best of their ability, and they are violating the hippocratic oath.
red states rule
New member
Obamacare would not only eliminate overuse of unnecessary and useless procedures - they would ration and DENY care because it costs to much
Seems the Obama supporters REFUSE to address that FACT since it is in the House bill, and the medial advisors to Obama have openly said so
Also, I noticed no libs replied to the article on the women who has been DENIED cancer treatment in the state fo Oregon because it costs the state to much money
Seems libs want to avoid a peek into the future should Obama gets what he wants
Last edited:
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
I'm still looking for someone to explain to me why the Democrats blocked an amendment providing people who weren't American citizens would not be eligible for insurance paid for by American taxes.....are you the someone who can explain that to me?........
PostmodernProphet
fully immersed in faith..
actually, I will admit I suspected they would be a bit conservative for your tastes......
red states rule
New member
Perhaps they see illegals as an untapped voter base that they want to tap in time for the 201o midterms?