What I'm talking about is what happened.
Obama's Stance on Concealed Carry?
- Thread starter Epicurus
- Start date
To be honest, wouldn't you? They were counted only to allow the owner to vote "for" them...
Of course, many Native Americans were totally left out, but then that doesn't seem to matter....
The reality is, each of the changes are Amendments. It is silly to reject the whole idea of them when it IS how it was changed.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
I take your question seriously.
I respect the Founding Fathers, particularly Jefferson and Madison. I consider myself a Jeffersonian and I quote him often.
I probably know more of that history than most, and I know that both Jefferson and Madison saw the failures in the Constitution and in fact spokle against ratifying it until the Bill of Rights was created to fill the gaping holes in the Constitution.
I respect American history .. that which deserves respect, but that histroy also leaves much to be desired.
Jefferson thought freedom from corporations was a basic human right, but today, corporations have more rights than Americans.
Epicurus
Reasonable
I also agree that there is a role for the government in protecting the individual American from corporations.
But the Founders did an amazing job of drafting a document that could withstand the changing times and be revised to fit needs. The process of amending the Constitution was meant to prevent a tyranny of the majority.
The reason I originally asked your feelings about them is that I have found many African Americans hold bitterness toward the Fathers for allowing slavery to exist in the new nation. Since you mentioned you have significant knowledge of the drafting of the Constitution I am sure you know that a literal majority of the Founding Fathers were morally opposed to slavery, and found it distasteful to allow. I am not trying to excuse it, but merely help explain it.
I have espoused before the view of many academics that the Founding Fathers did all they could at the time to end slavery without destroying the still fragile Union. They outlawed the international slave trade, and put slavery on a path to be eradicated within 20 years. I understand the criticisms that they could or should have done more, but I honestly believe that each generation of Americans has done the best they could in their respective times to advance the struggle for political equality. But this can, has, and should be done by the process outlined in the Constitution.
Good Luck
New member
We seem to have taken a bit of a turn off topic. But to keep in the focus on constitutional issue and the topic of this thread, I will mention this:
Obama has, on several occasions, mentioned limitations on enumerated rights when talking about how he views the 2nd Amendment. Among his favorite is the all-too-familiar "yelling MOVIE! in a crowded firehouse." (Or something like that)
The rhetoric he has oft repeated in a narrow variance, indicates to me his acknowledgment of the people's rights under the 2nd amendment is more lip service, while his actions, voting records, and other words shows how he really stands on the issue of 2nd Amendment rights. Gun control has always been an issue between myself and the democratic party. Until recently I was willing to overlook the way the democratic party views the 2nd amendment because of other policies I found - at the time - to be more important.
Now, I am not so sure that was wise. With both parties getting farther and farther from the central ideologies our nation is founded on, with more and more control being taken by the federal (and in some cases state) government in plain violation of the Constitution, I have come to the conclusion that the 2nd amendment will eventually become the most important. When (note I do not say "if") we allow the government to remove our ability to maintain a well regulated militia (as defined in 1780, not the changed modern definition) then it will not be long before our other rights are also removed by the same gradually increasing "common sense" infringements.
Obama has, on several occasions, mentioned limitations on enumerated rights when talking about how he views the 2nd Amendment. Among his favorite is the all-too-familiar "yelling MOVIE! in a crowded firehouse." (Or something like that)
The rhetoric he has oft repeated in a narrow variance, indicates to me his acknowledgment of the people's rights under the 2nd amendment is more lip service, while his actions, voting records, and other words shows how he really stands on the issue of 2nd Amendment rights. Gun control has always been an issue between myself and the democratic party. Until recently I was willing to overlook the way the democratic party views the 2nd amendment because of other policies I found - at the time - to be more important.
Now, I am not so sure that was wise. With both parties getting farther and farther from the central ideologies our nation is founded on, with more and more control being taken by the federal (and in some cases state) government in plain violation of the Constitution, I have come to the conclusion that the 2nd amendment will eventually become the most important. When (note I do not say "if") we allow the government to remove our ability to maintain a well regulated militia (as defined in 1780, not the changed modern definition) then it will not be long before our other rights are also removed by the same gradually increasing "common sense" infringements.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
I appreciate and respect your thoughts my brother.
True, many African-Americans don't have much respect for the Founding Fathers, but I view them through the ignorance of their time. It's also true that Jefferson owned slaves himself, but in his writing of the Declaration of Independence, he insisted that "All men are created equal" and further stated, "There must doubtless be an unhappy influence on the manners of our people produced by the existence of slavery among us. The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it; for man is an imitative animal. This quality is the germ of all education in him."
In my opinion, the Declaration of Independence is a far better document than the Constitution because it distinguishes a citizen from a subject and outlines the right and DUTY of Americans to overthrow despotism. Most Americans have no clue what the Declaration means or intends.
Patrick Henry, in 1773, wrote, "I believe a time will come when an opportunity will be offered to abolish this lamentable evil. Everything we do is to improve it, if it happens in our day; if not, let us transmit to our descendants, together with our slaves, a pity for their unhappy lot and an abhorrence of slavery."
The Framers and heroes of that time were indeed imperfect, thus what they formed was an imperfect union. It is their ideals that live on today, not their imprefection.
The Constitution was, and still is, a flawed document and is as easily dismissed by the government as used toliet paper. Jim Crow laws existed in America for ONE HUNDRED YEARS and everything about those laws were "unconstitutional", but that did not stop the government from enforcing them.
Unbeknowst to most Americans, slavery is still legal and practiced in this country. SEE: the 13th Amendment .. then see what is happening in our prisons, in this, the greatest prison nation on earth.
I believe you can appreciate the differences in our perspectives.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
On the issue of the 2nd Amendment .. As I stated many times, Americans are an invented people .. almost child-like and easily manipulated by fear. We live a paranoid existence .. afraid of our own shadows, afraid of small nations many thousands of miles away, afraid of anything that doesn't look and smell like us.
A bible in one hand, a gun in the other.
We murder more of our fellow citizens daily than all the totalitarian nations we love to point fingers at.
We are a violent and oftentimes, senseless nation.
The answer for some .. more guns. Lets give guns to children and lets take guns to church and into public places.
Small wonder why American schools often become the scene of horrific mass-murder of innocent children.
We may be an educated people, but are we a learned people? We leave much doubt about that.
A bible in one hand, a gun in the other.
We murder more of our fellow citizens daily than all the totalitarian nations we love to point fingers at.
We are a violent and oftentimes, senseless nation.
The answer for some .. more guns. Lets give guns to children and lets take guns to church and into public places.
Small wonder why American schools often become the scene of horrific mass-murder of innocent children.
We may be an educated people, but are we a learned people? We leave much doubt about that.
SmarterthanYou
rebel
this is a patently false correlation. schools are 'gun free zones', yet allow for some of the highest body counts because nobody else had a gun.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
You make my point sir.
Lets give guns to children so they can blast away at any percieved threats.
If only the students at Columbine had guns.
You make my point.
Good Luck
New member
Your point is still patently false. No one is suggesting giving guns to children. However, an armed teacher or two could well have made significant difference in the school slayings.
As for other claims, they are also patently and deliberately false. The U.S. murder rate does not even come close to what Saddam used to do to his citizens. Nor other despots through history. NOR can you actually blame the murder rate on gun possession. Possession of weapons - including civilian models of military weapons like the M1 carbine, the M1 Garand, the M14, etc. was much higher in the 50s and 60s. For that matter it was not unusual for high school age boys to have their own gun. But gun crime rates only started to rise significantly in the mid 60s. And it has only been in the last decade and a half that random school shootings have taken place.
Blaming legal gun ownership for the level of gun crimes in our nation, and the resulting demand for strict gun control measures is based on nothing more than fear, fear mongering, ignorance, and the tendency of politicians to find band-aid solutions to problems so they can point to what they are doing about gun crime the next election cycle.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Good Luck
New member
I will debate issues. I have always been willing to debate issues.
When a debater starts making personal attacks, then I stop debating them. I do have a couple people on ignore whose only purpose, as far as I can see, is to interject useless flame bait. Otherwise I do not ignore posters.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Fair enough .. but you should be careful with your own words. You've been guilty of flaming and some of us will flame back.
Good Luck
New member
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Sure.
C
Cancel3
Guest
While reading thru these pages of writings, I thought it would be good to point out that american schools are still safe places.
Considering the number of people (children and adults) that spend their days in public schools, and the relatively small number of school shootings, our schools are very safe.
Its just that the media makes it seem as though school shootings are common.
Considering the number of people (children and adults) that spend their days in public schools, and the relatively small number of school shootings, our schools are very safe.
Its just that the media makes it seem as though school shootings are common.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
How many school shootings make it uncommon?
One .. two .. five?
There have been many more than that .. which makes it all too common for a so-called civilized society.
Good Luck
New member
One is too common not to look at our society seriously to figure out what the hell is going on. But blaming it on access to guns is the lazy political way out. It does NOTHING to address WHY the shootings are taking place, and where the rubber meets the road, does practically nothing to prevent future events.
The fact is school shooting were literally UNHEARD of during a time in our history when the types of weapons commonly used in school shootings were commonly available. Rifles such as the M1 carbine, the M1 Garand and M14 (fairly new in the 50s, but still had a civilian model) were widely in use as sporting rifles. Of the 3 the Garand was the only one which did not have high capacity magazines. The Colt m1911 .45 ACP could be had in pawn shops for cheap. But despite easy access to these weapons and others, gun crime rates were much lower than we see today, and practically miniscule compared to a decade or so ago.
These facts are not being used to point out some "idealistic" past. But they support the statement that legal access to weapons is NOT, nor is it in any way related to gun crime rates. In addition, violent crimes of ALL types increased at the same time and at approximately the same rate as gun crime rates, indicating gun crime itself is not the only problem, but part of a much bigger picture of runaway violent crime.
If our society wants to address these problems, we need to address violence in our society, and quit taking the "look, we're doing something" politically easy way out by pointing to and limiting legal access to guns - which can (and often has) been shown to be unrelated to the problem.
C