Peace and Calm Returns to Iraq

OrnotBitwise said:
That's why I insist that a popular native resistence movement is a necessary precondition for useful regime change. There was no such popular movement in Iraq and so I don't believe that even the Powell Doctrine would have resulted in the kind of government Bush keeps flogging. In fact, I don't believe it would have resulted in a stable government at all.
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I never said the result would be this wonderful Democracy, just that one can "keep the peace" under those circumstances.
 
The problem of course would be a large part of Saddam power lied in brutality and fear and equally replacing the power vacuum caused by his deposing would require the same.

Obviously this was not a viable option.
 
Pretty much. If your goal is to "keep the peace" you pretty much have to replace the government with one like that. In a place where differing groups are enmeshed in enmity how else does one "keep the peace"?
 
Damocles said:
I never said the result would be this wonderful Democracy, just that one can "keep the peace" under those circumstances.
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So we exchange one brutal government for another? With the added risks that (a) it might well prove to be worse than the existing government and (b) there's no guarantee that the nation won't dissolve into chaos once we pull our troops out? Sounds like an extremely bad idea to me. Possibly marginally more intelligent than what Bush and Rumsfeld cooked up, but still poor policy.
 
Damocles said:
The Powell Doctrine calls for overwhelming force, which would have filled that vacuum.
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it would have filled the vacuum with foreign force.... at some point in time, the indigenous people have to want to govern themselves enough to put their differences behind them...and do so without an overwhelming force of invaders standing over them.
 
OrnotBitwise said:
So we exchange one brutal government for another? With the added risks that (a) it might well prove to be worse than the existing government and (b) there's no guarantee that the nation won't dissolve into chaos once we pull our troops out? Sounds like an extremely bad idea to me. Possibly marginally more intelligent than what Bush and Rumsfeld cooked up, but still poor policy.
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Personally I think that if Saddam was the danger you go in take him out and let them resolve their own items, they will anyway.

I don't think we should have gone in the first place, but if you are going to go you must do it in a way that provides security for the people you are going to occupy. Overwhelming force is a necessity. It should be secure at least until you leave or all you have done is create a cesspool...

Creating a strong enough force to keep the peace once you leave should be a goal. Also a government that can use it responsibly. Those can never be gauranteed...

Basically you are gauranteed failure if you "invade" without the overwhelming force necessary to secure the nation during your (hopefully very) short tenure. IF you are going to invade and occupy for these purposes then if you want any chance at success you must have the forces necessary to ensure security.
 
maineman said:
it would have filled the vacuum with foreign force.... at some point in time, the indigenous people have to want to govern themselves enough to put their differences behind them...and do so without an overwhelming force of invaders standing over them.
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I agree.
 
IHateGovernment said:
The problem of course would be a large part of Saddam power lied in brutality and fear and equally replacing the power vacuum caused by his deposing would require the same.

Obviously this was not a viable option.
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Leaving sadam in power might prove to have been the most viable option.
 
Leaving sadam in power might prove to have been the most viable option.

Staying out of the internal affairs of all nations in general should be our policy.

Switzerland doesn't have these kind of problems.
 
uscitizen said:
so we stay in Iraq until the people join together and kick our butts out ?
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Were I President we would not be there, were I just becoming President my "plan" would be to find the most peaceful period possible, declare their forces "ready" and begin a scheduled withdrawal to nearby areas to better enable a reaction to Iran...
 
Damocles said:
Were I President we would not be there, were I just becoming President my "plan" would be to find the most peaceful period possible, declare their forces "ready" and begin a scheduled withdrawal to nearby areas to better enable a reaction to Iran...
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But would we go by that time Damo. Our industrial base will be imbedded and all that kind of stuff. I figure we would have to be kicked out if the time you speak of ever came.
 
uscitizen said:
But would we go by that time Damo. Our industrial base will be imbedded and all that kind of stuff. I figure we would have to be kicked out if the time you speak of ever came.
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Nah, just need a relative moment of "peace"... Their troops are strong enough to deal with it now, blah, blah...

In other words, get out.
 
Damocles said:
Nah, just need a relative moment of "peace"... Their troops are strong enough to deal with it now, blah, blah...

In other words, get out.
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Oh I agree it could be done, but I don't think that is the goal of the powers that be and will be in the USA.

I see the USA now as similiar to Japan before WW2, as far a resources are concerned. Needing resources and expanding our sphere of influence to get and control them.
 
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uscitizen said:
Oh I agree it could be done, but I don't think that is the goal of the powers that be and will be in the USA.

I see the USA now as similiar to Japan before WW2, as far a resources are concerned. Needing resources and expanding our sphere of influence to get and control them.
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Yeah, but I said "Were I <-pay particular attention to that word there, I know it is short...) President" not, "I think this is what will happen"...
 
uscitizen said:
I do hope I am wrong and you are right Damo.
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Right? I gave a scenario of "If I were President" not a Prediction...

LOL.

:D

What I predict will happen: We will fight the civil war an enmesh ourselves further in the inner workings of Iraq. We will work until there really are enough Iraqi troops to keep the status quo, then we will "leave" by "retreating" to a base in Iraq that was the real reason we invaded to begin with.
 
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