Personal Responsibility

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Dixie - In Memoriam

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There are basically 4 distinct major political viewpoints in this country. A variety of issues define where one might place themselves in the mix, but it occurs to me, the fundamental defining measure in principle, is how you feel about "personal responsibility."

Conservatives believe that personal responsibility is very important, paramount even, and we should reward attributes of positive PR, while discouraging negative PR. They believe there should be great benefits to acting responsibly, and dire consequences to not acting responsibly.

Libertarians are kind of like Conservatives, but they believe that all people will just behave responsibly, and there is really no need to mete out consequences for lack of personal responsibility. They assume that people will naturally want to behave responsibly, if given the opportunity to do so.

Liberals don't believe anyone is personally responsible for anything. That is why we have a government, so they can take responsibility for us, and we can (and should) avoid personal responsibility. They believe there is always someone else who shares responsibility for one's actions, and lack of personal responsibility should have no consequence.

Moderates are a mixed bag, mostly they don't really know what they believe with regard to personal responsibility. In some cases, people should behave responsibly, in other cases, the government should accept responsibility, and we should both punish, reward, and ignore, positive and negative personal responsibility. In other words, when it comes to personal responsibility, moderates stick their finger in the air and see which way the wind is blowing.
 
Dixie said:
There are basically 4 distinct major political viewpoints in this country. A variety of issues define where one might place themselves in the mix, but it occurs to me, the fundamental defining measure in principle, is how you feel about "personal responsibility."

Conservatives believe that personal responsibility is very important, paramount even, and we should reward attributes of positive PR, while discouraging negative PR. They believe there should be great benefits to acting responsibly, and dire consequences to not acting responsibly.

Libertarians are kind of like Conservatives, but they believe that all people will just behave responsibly, and there is really no need to mete out consequences for lack of personal responsibility. They assume that people will naturally want to behave responsibly, if given the opportunity to do so.

Liberals don't believe anyone is personally responsible for anything. That is why we have a government, so they can take responsibility for us, and we can (and should) avoid personal responsibility. They believe there is always someone else who shares responsibility for one's actions, and lack of personal responsibility should have no consequence.

Moderates are a mixed bag, mostly they don't really know what they believe with regard to personal responsibility. In some cases, people should behave responsibly, in other cases, the government should accept responsibility, and we should both punish, reward, and ignore, positive and negative personal responsibility. In other words, when it comes to personal responsibility, moderates stick their finger in the air and see which way the wind is blowing.
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Libertarians do not believe people will behave responsibly. But they do believe that, unless someone else is harmed, the government has not reason to regulate their personal freedom.






There have been a lot of this sort of post on this forum.

I can tell you the political leanings of the poster without ever seeing the name of the person posting it.

In this one, conservatives look like the only good way, and the rest are varying degrees of stupidity.

In others, the liberals are the only good way and the rest are varying degrees of stupidity.




It tells us much more about the poster than about any semblance of the truth about political leanings.
 
Aww Damn, I posted this in hopes that the whole board full of pinheads would suddenly agree with my analysis! I just knew that I would get inundated with replies from pinheads, lauding me for my brilliant and astute observations! I would have bet anything that was going to happen! Good thing I didn't, huh?

Libertarians do not believe people will behave responsibly. But they do believe that, unless someone else is harmed, the government has not reason to regulate their personal freedom.

Republicans don't believe the government has a right to regulate their "personal freedom" either. As far as I know, Liberals and Moderates don't believe government has this right, so I think we are all pretty fucking unanimous in that, we don't want the government regulating our lives. That has absolutely nothing to do with my point.

In every issue you can name, the libertarian view is based on the premise that people will behave responsibly and if they don't, it's not a big deal, the few who don't will be insignificant. Let's take the libertarian "biggie" ...legalizing marijuana... you believe it should be legalized, and you don't consider the people who would not behave responsibly. The reality is, a helluva lot of people wouldn't behave responsibly, and it would be the rest of us who would have to pay the price for that. At the same time we are having a debate about footing the bill for nationalized health care for all, you want to make dope legal for people to abuse as they please! It's absolutely insane!

As I said (and brilliantly, I might add), the difference in our various political views is tied to the issue of "personal responsibility." Now granted, no one is going to come out and admit they don't believe in personal responsibility! I've never met a soul who admitted that! Yet, when you dissect what they do believe in, what they support, it boils down to their fundamental core beliefs about "personal responsibility" and you proved this by your very comment. You relate "personal responsibility" with "personal freedom!" To you, the issue of "personal responsibility" is really an issue of freedom of choice, and you think we should all be entitled to do as we please in that regard. That's fine, it's one of the four major ways of thinking regarding "personal responsibility!" I am not bashing that, or calling you stupid to any degree, I just think you look at "personal responsibility" in a different way than conservatives, liberals, or sometimes moderates.
 
Dixie said:
In every issue you can name, the libertarian view is based on the premise that people will behave responsibly and if they don't, it's not a big deal, the few who don't will be insignificant. Let's take the libertarian "biggie" ...legalizing marijuana... you believe it should be legalized, and you don't consider the people who would not behave responsibly. The reality is, a helluva lot of people wouldn't behave responsibly, and it would be the rest of us who would have to pay the price for that. At the same time we are having a debate about footing the bill for nationalized health care for all, you want to make dope legal for people to abuse as they please! It's absolutely insane!
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Except that your position is that no one should be allowed to responsibly use marijuana because a few will be irresponsible with it.

The libertarian view is that your life is your personal responsibility. If you make bad choices you have to live with the results of those bad choices. If someone behaves irresponsibly and harms someone else, then they should be punished. If they behave irresponsibly and harm only themselves, they have to live with the consequences of their actions. No where in the libertarian ideaology is the concept "the libertarian view is based on the premise that people will behave responsibly and if they don't, it's not a big deal". That is simply something you made up.

It was almost clever that you add in the debate about national health care in the paragraph about marijuana. I say "almost" because there is not a single libertarian (that I know about) who supports the national health care plans. The entire premise of the libertarian party is that the role of the government should be at an absolute minimum.



As for my use of personal freedom and personal responsibility in the same post, I think they are linked. If you are for individual liberties, then you must also be for individual responsibilities. If you are free to make the choices about your life, you will be responsible for those choices.

Now, you claim that the conservatives are as much for freedoms as the libertarians. You claim that conservatives believe the government should not have the right to regulate personal lives. And yet, you are all for the government regulating marijuana use. Not the crimes that may or may not go with it, and thereby effect other people. But the individual, responsible use of a recreational drug.
 
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Solitary said:
Except that your position is that no one should be allowed to responsibly use marijuana because a few will be irresponsible with it.
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That's not my position at all. We just had a very extensive debate on this, I am sure you are aware that I favor decriminalizing marijuana. That would allow people to responsibly use marijuana and not commit a felony. So, you are absolutely incorrect in your interpretation of my opinion on this.

The libertarian view is that your life is your personal responsibility. If you make bad choices you have to live with the results of those bad choices. If someone behaves irresponsibly and harms someone else, then they should be punished. If they behave irresponsibly and harm only themselves, they have to live with the consequences of their actions.
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Which is almost verbatim what I said in my opening post.

No where in the libertarian ideaology is the concept "the libertarian view is based on the premise that people will behave responsibly and if they don't, it's not a big deal". That is simply something you made up.
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It's essentially what you just got through saying.

It was almost clever that you add in the debate about national health care in the paragraph about marijuana. I say "almost" because there is not a single libertarian (that I know about) who supports the national health care plans. The entire premise of the libertarian party is that the role of the government should be at an absolute minimum.
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Yes, I know Libertarians don't advocate nationalized health care, but Libertarians (last I checked) have no political power in America. If you have been following the platforms of the two political parties who DO have power, you should realize that some form of "nationalized health care" is coming, it's just a matter of how much and to what degree.

And yes... you do believe in a smaller government, because you believe people will have personal responsibility, and we don't need the government to worry with those who don't. Again, it goes with what I originally posted.

As for my use of personal freedom and personal responsibility in the same post, I think they are linked. If you are for individual liberties, then you must also be for individual responsibilities. If you are free to make the choices about your life, you will be responsible for those choices.
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Yes, I know you link the two, that is what makes you a Libertarian... again, my point exactly. What you fail to understand is, people are often NOT responsible, and WILL NOT accept responsibility for their choices. It would be a wonderful world if it operated the way a Libertarian envisioned it to be, but reality doesn't cooperate.

Now, you claim that the conservatives are as much for freedoms as the libertarians. You claim that conservatives believe the government should not have the right to regulate personal lives. And yet, you are all for the government regulating marijuana use. Not the crimes that may or may not go with it, and thereby effect other people. But the individual, responsible use of a recreational drug.
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Again, you apparently have some learning disability or reading disorder, because I have NEVER advocated for government control of a person's right to smoke, possess, or grow marijuana. I favor decriminalization... that means, I am for removing laws currently on the books which enable police to arrest people who grow, possess or use marijuana. I really don't know of a clearer way to state it, I have posted it about a thousand times now, and every time, you come back and insist that I want to do the opposite. What the fuck is up with that? We had a 7-page thread about this, and I thought it was made abundantly clear that I don't favor passing any laws to prohibit the use of marijuana. Do you mean my position about making pot a legally sold over-the-counter commercial product? I gave my reasons for that, and it had nothing to do with wanting to keep people from using pot. It does, however, go to the root of what I said in my opening post, about the difference in Republicans and Libertarians. You believe people will behave responsibly, and I know many will not, and we both will have to pay as a consequence.
 
"In every issue you can name, the libertarian view is based on the premise that people will behave responsibly and if they don't, it's not a big deal, the few who don't will be insignificant. Let's take the libertarian "biggie" ...no gun restrictions... you believe everyone should be allowed to obtain a gun, and you don't consider the people who would not behave responsibly. The reality is, a helluva lot of people wouldn't behave responsibly, and it would be the rest of us who would have to pay the price for that."

Hmmm, Dixie that's an interesting take. You've given me something to think about.
 
A guy on Air America says Libertarians are just Republicans who want to get laid and get high.
 
Topspin said:
A guy on Air America says Libertarians are just Republicans who want to get laid and get high.
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Well, the republican viewpoints on sex and drugs are two of the things I disagree with. The republican party was once about fiscal responsibility, but they blew that one all to hell.

I think Libertarians are probably like republicans that want to get laid, get high and keep the money that they earn.
 
Dixie said:
Yes, I know Libertarians don't advocate nationalized health care, but Libertarians (last I checked) have no political power in America. If you have been following the platforms of the two political parties who DO have power, you should realize that some form of "nationalized health care" is coming, it's just a matter of how much and to what degree.
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Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this thread was about what the various political parties BELIEVE.

So you want to knock the libertarian belief that legalizing pot is the right thing to do. And your backing is the national health care plan that the libertarians oppose?

Do you get cramps when you twist like that?
 
Conservatives believe that personal responsibility is very important, paramount even, and we should reward attributes of positive PR, while discouraging negative PR. They believe there should be great benefits to acting responsibly, and dire consequences to not acting responsibly.
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Based on the empirical evidence since 2000 this is pure crap.
 
Darla said:
"In every issue you can name, the libertarian view is based on the premise that people will behave responsibly and if they don't, it's not a big deal, the few who don't will be insignificant. Let's take the libertarian "biggie" ...no gun restrictions... you believe everyone should be allowed to obtain a gun, and you don't consider the people who would not behave responsibly. The reality is, a helluva lot of people wouldn't behave responsibly, and it would be the rest of us who would have to pay the price for that."

Hmmm, Dixie that's an interesting take. You've given me something to think about.
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besides the misquote, which doesn't change the issue here, it's amazing that you do not see the difference between the two. Whomever chooses to behave irresponsibly, even criminally, faces dire and lethal consequences from all those around him by virtue of everyone being armed, or at least those who have chosen to be. Did this not cross your mind?
 
uscitizen said:
So every individuals idea of what is justice is the same?
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in an overall general sense, for small communities, yes. sometimes even large communities. But what I was originally speaking about anyway was not the individuals being their own police force, but their own security force. There is a difference.
 
SmarterThanYou said:
in an overall general sense, for small communities, yes. sometimes even large communities. But what I was originally speaking about anyway was not the individuals being their own police force, but their own security force. There is a difference.
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So we all agree what the punishment is for theft? Ponzi schemes? infidelity?
Abortion? etc etc?
 
It's alright. Everyone having an AK-47 will make the US easier to fall into anarchy so that I can form the Socialist Peoples Republic I have in mind. What do people do when you remove the government? They make governments.
 
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