Philosophy Discussion

KingCondanomation

KingCondanomation

New member
Is the fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper a good moral tale? Here it is if you've never read it:

In a field one summer's day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart's content. An Ant passed by, bearing along with great toil an ear of corn he was taking to the nest.

"Why not come and chat with me," said the Grasshopper, "instead of toiling and moiling in that way?"

"I am helping to lay up food for the winter," said the Ant, "and recommend you to do the same."

"Why bother about winter?" said the Grasshopper; we have got plenty of food at present." But the Ant went on its way and continued its toil. When the winter came the Grasshopper had no food and found itself dying of hunger, while it saw the ants distributing every day corn and grain from the stores they had collected in the summer. Then the Grasshopper knew:

It is best to prepare for the days of necessity.

http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Aesop/Aesops_Fables/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper_p1.html

Should the ant help the grasshopper avoid death?
 
KingCondanomation said:
Is the fable of the Ant and the Grasshopper a good moral tale? Here it is if you've never read it:

In a field one summer's day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart's content. An Ant passed by, bearing along with great toil an ear of corn he was taking to the nest.

"Why not come and chat with me," said the Grasshopper, "instead of toiling and moiling in that way?"

"I am helping to lay up food for the winter," said the Ant, "and recommend you to do the same."

"Why bother about winter?" said the Grasshopper; we have got plenty of food at present." But the Ant went on its way and continued its toil. When the winter came the Grasshopper had no food and found itself dying of hunger, while it saw the ants distributing every day corn and grain from the stores they had collected in the summer. Then the Grasshopper knew:

It is best to prepare for the days of necessity.

http://www.pagebypagebooks.com/Aesop/Aesops_Fables/The_Ant_and_the_Grasshopper_p1.html

Should the ant help the grasshopper avoid death?
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Only out of a surplus. When the dire happens, some rules must come into play.
 
Annie said:
Only out of a surplus. When the dire happens, some rules must come into play.
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I hadn't thought of that. But what if some expect some of that surplus and argue that in a society as wealthy as ours there's no reason they shouldn't be able to have ____?

I think the fable is difficult to compare as food can spoil and there is no loss for the future in getting rid of extra, whereas with money there is. Perhaps that shows a big failure of leftist thought - that they still rely on primitive thinking in terms of wealth being like food where it NEEDS to be used when on hand.
 
Because everyone who loses a job or gets injured on the job or who otherwise finds themselves unemployed & in need of temporary assistance is exactly like the grasshopper.

Danoworld.
 
Onceler said:
Because everyone who loses a job or gets injured on the job or who otherwise finds themselves unemployed & in need of temporary assistance is exactly like the grasshopper.

Danoworld.
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Did I say that? The story is what it is, you are just adding on circumstances to justify it. Based on the story as it is, do you consider it a moral tale?

Remember the ant is fully aware of WHY the grasshopper would end up in the predicament he got in and it isn't because of anything out of his control, so judge the fable as it is.
 
KingCondanomation said:
Did I say that? The story is what it is, you are just adding on circumstances to justify it. Based on the story as it is, do you consider it a moral tale?

Remember the ant is fully aware of WHY the grasshopper would end up in the predicament he got in and it isn't because of anything out of his control, so judge the fable as it is.
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The reason Aesop's are useless is that there is no situation in life anything like them.
 
Watermark said:
The reason Aesop's are useless is that there is no situation in life anything like them.
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ROFL! You really don't have much life experience. Try living in the heart of Liberalism that you love so much like an inner city.

Aesop's fables had staying power precisely because people COULD relate to them, even through the different ages.
 
KingCondanomation said:
ROFL! You really don't have much life experience. Try living in the heart of Liberalism that you love so much like an inner city.

Aesop's fables had staying power precisely because people COULD relate to them, even through the different ages.
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TY for the token "I'm an a-dult" moment. And why can't I live in, for instance, rural Denmark? Preferably one of the cities they're converting into a carbon-neutral town.

Yes, if you simplify the major issues from situations and come up with a huge caricature of an event, you can find a cheap aseop to fit it, and make the decision you were going to make anyway, just with a huge caricature to prop it up.
 
Watermark said:
TY for the token "I'm an a-dult" moment. And why can't I live in, for instance, rural Denmark? Preferably one of the cities they're converting into a carbon-neutral town.
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Hey go ahead, but you are kind of swimming against the tide there, despite having pretty much no other country to move to that speaks Danish as well, Denmark is losing it's workers to places that don't have taxes that are as high to support that wonderful Liberal life you love and never lived.

"The Confederation of Danish Industries estimated in August that the Danish labor force had shrunk by about 19,000 people through the end of 2005, because Danes and others had moved elsewhere. Other studies suggest that about 1,000 people leave the country each year, a figure that masks an outflow of qualified Danes and an inflow of less skilled foreign workers who help, at least partially, to offset the losses.

Danish business normally keeps its distance from politics, but in parliamentary elections this year, a few companies jumped into the fray.

Lars Christensen is co-chief executive of Saxo Bank, a Copenhagen financial services firm specializing in currency trading and retail brokerage services.

"The high tax rate is the No. 1 problem we have," Christensen said. "It's that simple.""
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/05/business/labor.php?page=2

Watermark said:
Yes, if you simplify the major issues from situations and come up with a huge caricature of an event, you can find a cheap aseop to fit it, and make the decision you were going to make anyway, just with a huge caricature to prop it up.
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There are no major issues here, it is a simple story that most normal people can relate to of the dilemna of should they help someone who didn't bother to help themselves?
You dance around answering it like Onceler and YOU are the one complicating it.
I've lived right next door to a social housing welfare project, virtually no one up when I went out of my apartment to walk to work early in the morning and gee they didn't park the cars they shouldn't have in any disabled spots either.
You really need to get out and see what it is you are defending.
 
KingCondanomation said:
Hey go ahead, but you are kind of swimming against the tide there, despite having pretty much no other country to move to that speaks Danish as well, Denmark is losing it's workers to places that don't have taxes that are as high to support that wonderful Liberal life you love and never lived.

"The Confederation of Danish Industries estimated in August that the Danish labor force had shrunk by about 19,000 people through the end of 2005, because Danes and others had moved elsewhere. Other studies suggest that about 1,000 people leave the country each year, a figure that masks an outflow of qualified Danes and an inflow of less skilled foreign workers who help, at least partially, to offset the losses.

Danish business normally keeps its distance from politics, but in parliamentary elections this year, a few companies jumped into the fray.

Lars Christensen is co-chief executive of Saxo Bank, a Copenhagen financial services firm specializing in currency trading and retail brokerage services.

"The high tax rate is the No. 1 problem we have," Christensen said. "It's that simple.""
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/12/05/business/labor.php?page=2
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America is the worst country in history. The only problem with Denmark is the conservative party currently governing.
 
KingCondanomation said:
There are no major issues here, it is a simple story that most normal people can relate to of the dilemna of should they help someone who didn't bother to help themselves?
You dance around answering it like Onceler and YOU are the one complicating it.
I've lived right next door to a social housing welfare project, virtually no one up when I went out of my apartment to walk to work early in the morning and gee they didn't park the cars they shouldn't have in any disabled spots either.
You really need to get out and see what it is you are defending.
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No, you do.
 
The Ant and The Man
(a fable written by Stewart Lee and Richard Herring, from Lee and Herring's Fist of Fun)

Once upon a time there lived an ant. And a man. It was summertime and the sun shone in the field where the ant and the man lived.
"Wahey. It's summertime and all is fine. Come on ant, let's just arse around in just our pants, playing Frisbee and squirting ourselves with water from this hosepipe." said the man.

But the ant did not join in with the man's foolish games because he was responsible and hard-working and was gathering food in preparation for the winter. And also because he was an ant and thus could not appreciate the pleasure of tossing a small plastic disc through the air, to a man. And anyway, he couldn't have done it, even if he had appreciated that pleasure because he was an insect with no hands.

The man taunted the hard working ant.
"Ant, you are a twat. Look at you, you spend your whole time carrying leaves from one place to another but look at me. I'm going to ride down to the park, on my 10-speed, and drink cider and shout at girls. Are you coming or what?"

Again the ant took no heed of the man and went about his work, because he was an insect and driven purely by instinct, unable to make choices and value judgements. He was an ant. You understand? He was an ANT. AN ANT!

Anyway, all to soon, winter came. The ant was snug in his hole with enough leaves to last the whole winter through but the man was unprepared for the shift in seasons.
"What's this? Snow?" said the man. "Oh no. It's too cold to wear just my pants now, and squirting myself with the hose has become unpleasant. I have no food with me. What shall i do?"

"I know, i'll go home" he said.

Fortunately, the man, being a human being, had his own centrally-heated house and a wardrobe full of warm winter clothing. But, oh dear. Due to his tomfoolery, in the field all summer, the man had not had time to visit the supermarket...and now it was closed.
"Shit!" said the man, "...hold on".
The man picked up the nearby telephone and punched in the number of the pizza shop on the High Street and ordered a large Margarita and some garlic bread.

Come the spring, the man ran out of his house and went to the field. And what did he see emerging from his hole?

Nothing.

The ant, being merely an insect had died of old age. An insect's life-span is much shorter than our own. You see, it would have made much more sense for the ant to enjoy itself while it could, but instead it chose to work hard all summer then die, alone, in a hole, underground, surrounded by all the leaves that it had needlessly gathered.

The moral of the story...all animal fables are useless because they are about animals and not people and thus have no relevance to our lives.
 
charver said:
The Ant and The Man
(a fable written by Stewart Lee and Richard Herring, from Lee and Herring's Fist of Fun)

Once upon a time there lived an ant. And a man. It was summertime and the sun shone in the field where the ant and the man lived.
"Wahey. It's summertime and all is fine. Come on ant, let's just arse around in just our pants, playing Frisbee and squirting ourselves with water from this hosepipe." said the man.

But the ant did not join in with the man's foolish games because he was responsible and hard-working and was gathering food in preparation for the winter. And also because he was an ant and thus could not appreciate the pleasure of tossing a small plastic disc through the air, to a man. And anyway, he couldn't have done it, even if he had appreciated that pleasure because he was an insect with no hands.

The man taunted the hard working ant.
"Ant, you are a twat. Look at you, you spend your whole time carrying leaves from one place to another but look at me. I'm going to ride down to the park, on my 10-speed, and drink cider and shout at girls. Are you coming or what?"

Again the ant took no heed of the man and went about his work, because he was an insect and driven purely by instinct, unable to make choices and value judgements. He was an ant. You understand? He was an ANT. AN ANT!

Anyway, all to soon, winter came. The ant was snug in his hole with enough leaves to last the whole winter through but the man was unprepared for the shift in seasons.
"What's this? Snow?" said the man. "Oh no. It's too cold to wear just my pants now, and squirting myself with the hose has become unpleasant. I have no food with me. What shall i do?"

"I know, i'll go home" he said.

Fortunately, the man, being a human being, had his own centrally-heated house and a wardrobe full of warm winter clothing. But, oh dear. Due to his tomfoolery, in the field all summer, the man had not had time to visit the supermarket...and now it was closed.
"Shit!" said the man, "...hold on".
The man picked up the nearby telephone and punched in the number of the pizza shop on the High Street and ordered a large Margarita and some garlic bread.

Come the spring, the man ran out of his house and went to the field. And what did he see emerging from his hole?

Nothing.

The ant, being merely an insect had died of old age. An insect's life-span is much shorter than our own. You see, it would have made much more sense for the ant to enjoy itself while it could, but instead it chose to work hard all summer then die, alone, in a hole, underground, surrounded by all the leaves that it had needlessly gathered.

The moral of the story...all animal fables are useless because they are about animals and not people and thus have no relevance to our lives.
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NO NO YOU JUST HAVEN'T LIVED ENOUGH YEARS OF YOUR LIVES TO REALIZE THE TRUTH
 
Hardly philosophy, rather a child's tale best told to children. The value it brings to the child is another story and if the child is rich like W, who is twin to the grasshopper, and still rich, meaningless and irrelevant.


But instead get into philosophy and consider real issues not childish tales. Consider Parfits's the RC, "the Repugnant Conclusion is characterized as follows: "For any possible population of at least ten billion people, all with a very high quality of life, there must be some much larger imaginable population whose existence, if other things are equal, would be better even though its members have lives that are barely worth living..."" The question then becomes is life more important measured against the quality of life? So which do we have, all that makes us happy or just a little that makes us somewhat happy and what are the implications for society?

Parfit The Repugnant Conclusion
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/repugnant-conclusion/


Carver, that was good.
 
charver said:
The Ant and The Man
(a fable written by Stewart Lee and Richard Herring, from Lee and Herring's Fist of Fun)

Once upon a time there lived an ant. And a man. It was summertime and the sun shone in the field where the ant and the man lived.
"Wahey. It's summertime and all is fine. Come on ant, let's just arse around in just our pants, playing Frisbee and squirting ourselves with water from this hosepipe." said the man.

But the ant did not join in with the man's foolish games because he was responsible and hard-working and was gathering food in preparation for the winter. And also because he was an ant and thus could not appreciate the pleasure of tossing a small plastic disc through the air, to a man. And anyway, he couldn't have done it, even if he had appreciated that pleasure because he was an insect with no hands.

The man taunted the hard working ant.
"Ant, you are a twat. Look at you, you spend your whole time carrying leaves from one place to another but look at me. I'm going to ride down to the park, on my 10-speed, and drink cider and shout at girls. Are you coming or what?"

Again the ant took no heed of the man and went about his work, because he was an insect and driven purely by instinct, unable to make choices and value judgements. He was an ant. You understand? He was an ANT. AN ANT!

Anyway, all to soon, winter came. The ant was snug in his hole with enough leaves to last the whole winter through but the man was unprepared for the shift in seasons.
"What's this? Snow?" said the man. "Oh no. It's too cold to wear just my pants now, and squirting myself with the hose has become unpleasant. I have no food with me. What shall i do?"

"I know, i'll go home" he said.

Fortunately, the man, being a human being, had his own centrally-heated house and a wardrobe full of warm winter clothing. But, oh dear. Due to his tomfoolery, in the field all summer, the man had not had time to visit the supermarket...and now it was closed.
"Shit!" said the man, "...hold on".
The man picked up the nearby telephone and punched in the number of the pizza shop on the High Street and ordered a large Margarita and some garlic bread.

Come the spring, the man ran out of his house and went to the field. And what did he see emerging from his hole?

Nothing.

The ant, being merely an insect had died of old age. An insect's life-span is much shorter than our own. You see, it would have made much more sense for the ant to enjoy itself while it could, but instead it chose to work hard all summer then die, alone, in a hole, underground, surrounded by all the leaves that it had needlessly gathered.

The moral of the story...all animal fables are useless because they are about animals and not people and thus have no relevance to our lives.
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Ok funny but...
No the moral of your story is that it's more ok to live an existentialist life if your life span is shorter. And man's is anything but, Aesop should have chose more appropriate animals.

So where did the man who spent all his time running through a hosepipe get his money for his apartment and to order some food? Why...he must have worked!
Unless of course it is social welfare housing and food paid from a welfare check, in which case he has no morals period.

Time for a short Danocdotal story. When I was working at the pizza place, at a certain time of the month a lot of orders would come in from certain welfare projects. The day before presumably one woman got her check, she called me up and said she wanted to order a pizza and if she could just pay me back tomorrow (You get about a couple of those a month, the pricks are the ones who don't say that til the driver gets there). Of course I said no and she turns around (presumably to her son) and says (in a loud pleading voice that I can hear) "Oh sorry little boy, looks like there's no supper for you tonight." Then I said, "Well there is if you pay for it", but she just tries to drown me out and say the same thing again louder to her son. Fucking pissed off like anything, I just told her to go buy some groceries or try working and then hung up as she was still telling her son the same thing trying to guilt me into giving her free pizza.
She called back and wanted to talk to the manager, which meant she basically got put on hold until I had time to deal with her after the real customers and then get back to her and pretend to be the manager.
 
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