Punishment and Penal Substitution

[Kafka]

I'm sure that's the understanding you would get if you let cable news and social media do your thinking for you.

I've been following this debate since 1981, so cable news and social media don't necessarily inform my understanding of it.

I'm interested in getting the right answer. Not the answer one is taught to believe by media personalities.

And your answer appears to be flawed for the reasons stated.

Only white Evangelical Protestants support full abortion bans. Majorities of the laity in every other religious demographics support some form of legalized abortion, including Catholics, black Protestants, mainline Protestants.

It is like you simply choose to ignore the points that have been presented against this litany.

The biggest determinative factor on abortion is white nationalism.

No. Where do you get that?

And as you can see on this board, a lot of white nationalists don't attend church, don't participate in a religious community, and don't really understand Christian teaching or even know the Bible.

A LOT of White Nationalists are also Christian Nationalists.

What white nationalism is driven by is a sense of white male grievance, and a desire to turn the clock back on minorities and women. And I don't have a shadow of a doubt that those Incel and toxic masculinity impulses work their way into abortion politics.

No one is arguing that the knock-on benefit of abortion bans is control of women. But to lay it at "atheism" rather than the ACTUAL culprits (Religious Right voters) is absurd on its face and goes in direct contravention of what we've watched with our eyes over the last 50 years.

 

[Cypress]

I've been following this debate since 1981, so cable news and social media don't necessarily inform my understanding of it.



And your answer appears to be flawed for the reasons stated.





It is like you simply choose to ignore the points that have been presented against this litany.



No. Where do you get that?



A LOT of White Nationalists are also Christian Nationalists.



No one is arguing that the knock-on benefit of abortion bans is control of women. But to lay it at "atheism" rather than the ACTUAL culprits (Religious Right voters) is absurd on its face and goes in direct contravention of what we've watched with our eyes over the last 50 years.

You've lost the script then.

In the 21st century, Republican identity is first and foremost to just be against anything liberals support. No matter what it is.

This board is evidence of that.

Bipartisan support for Roe that existed for several decades evaporated when white nationalism, white grievance, misogyny, and toxic masculinity became the fuel driving Republican politics. The atheist Trump was the manifestation of that. White Protestant evangelicals were never powerful enough on their own to rescind Roe.


But you're free to believe the simplistic narrative cable news coached you to believe.

 

[Kafka]

You've lost the script then.

In the 21st century, Republican identity is first and foremost to just be against anything liberals support. No matter what it is.

This board is evidence of that.

Bipartisan support for Roe that existed for several decades evaporated when white nationalism, white grievance, misogyny, and toxic masculinity became the fuel driving Republican politics. The atheist Trump was the manifestation of that. White Protestant evangelicals were never powerful enough on their own to rescind Roe.


But you're free to believe the simplistic narrative cable news coached you to believe.

Other than your flawed syllogism related to Trump's lack of religious beliefs, do you actually have any evidence of your position? Because I've never heard anyone espouse that and it kind of sounds like your usual "hatred of atheists" line of reasoning in which you demonize any person or group you personally dislike.

Honestly I've never heard anyone suggest overturning Roe wasn't primarily a Religious Right driven position.

And, again, the SCOTUS judges who voted to overturn it are pretty much dominated by the ultra-hardline religious like Amy Coney Barrett and Samuel Alito.

 

[Cypress]

Other than your flawed syllogism related to Trump's lack of religious beliefs, do you actually have any evidence of your position? Because I've never heard anyone espouse that and it kind of sounds like your usual "hatred of atheists" line of reasoning in which you demonize any person or group you personally dislike.

Honestly I've never heard anyone suggest overturning Roe wasn't primarily a Religious Right driven position.

And, again, the SCOTUS judges who voted to overturn it are pretty much dominated by the ultra-hardline religious like Amy Coney Barrett and Samuel Alito.

If you are going to correlate religion to the overturn of of Roe, you've got a problem.

The nation is less religious now than it was in the 1980s and 1990s.

Significantly less religious.

Roe didn't stand a prayer of being over overturned in the 1980s, because there was still bipartisan support for it in the Senate.


Do you really think Matt Gaetz, Lauren Boebert, Roger Stone, Roger Ailes, Steve Bannon, Donald Trumpf, or most of the white nationalists on this board are practicing christians?

At some point Republicans decided that anything and everything Democrats supported was an existential threat to white male male hegemony and their political identity. And that you included Roe.

It doesn't matter to me if you agree. It's very simple and easy to accept the narrative cable news teaches.

 

[IBDaMann]

Thanks for agreeing that Roe would have never been overturned without atheists, agnostics, Incels, Buddhists, various and sundry irreligious of the rightwing persuasion.

I don't agree. Roe vs. Wade would never have been overturned without people of the morality persuasion.

White evangelical Protestants by themselves never could have accomplished it.

They most certainly did, apparently, by appealing to moral people across the country.

Polling routinely shows Black Protestants, mainline Protestants, and Catholics favor keeping some form of reproductive choice legal.

I feel sorry for your heroin-like addiction to being manipulated by "polling" disinformation. Perhaps you can enroll in a 12-step program for that.

 

[IBDaMann]

MAGA morons want to follow Sparta's example and banish the weak and disabled.

The next time you become flummoxed over everyone recognizing you as a dingbat, just remember that it is the only possible result when all you have are misrepresentations of the positions of others.

 

[Damocles]

Here's where your reasoning is flawed: The overturning for Roe was NOT done by "popular vote". It was done by SCOTUS which is not elected.

SCOTUS has been the focus of the Religious Right for about 50 years now and it provides the litmus test for both their selection of president as well as that president's selection of justices. It took 50 years to get sufficient of the religious judges in the robes to effect the change. Many of them lied to Congress during their interviews by claiming that Roe was settled law or they espoused an agreement with stare decisis. When they were empaneled they waited until the predictable next abortion case came and they voted as they were expected to by the people who put them into that position (eg pandering to the religious right).

This is pretty obvious from just watching the news the last 50 years.

It seems your hatred of atheists, like your hatred of me, clouds your ability to reason effectively. So when you are challenged on a point you resort to ignore those who challenge you or this stupid gambit of "Thank you for confirming my idea". Instead of honest debate, when you get into your rage hate you lose the ability to discuss a point and prefer to discuss the person or group who is your target of hatred.

Perhaps you could try debating somewhat more dispassionately.

It's silly to pretend that it was put in place by popular vote... It was set up and removed in exactly the same way. Now, popular vote can be used in most states to provide the prevailing laws in those states.

 

[Kafka]

If you are going to correlate religion to the overturn of of Roe, you've got a problem.

Manifestly it has been.

The nation is less religious now than it was in the 1980s and 1990s.

Significantly less religious.

And, again, that doesn't matter. Roe was taken out by judicial action which is inherently NOT based on polling data or popularity. It is, in fact, why the Religious Right put so much work into it.

It doesn't matter to me if you agree. It's very simple and easy to accept the narrative cable news teaches.

This is lazy. You act as if people haven't been watching this unfold exactly as it was over 40 years. This isn't some "cable news manipulation" thing. This long predates cable news shift to pure editorial and many of us actually watched it in real time.

I am genuinely surprised that you never noticed that the GOP has steadily shifted to pandering to the Religious Right. They've literally been doing it since Ronald Reagan played to the Moral Majority.

Your hypothesis that it was driven by "atheists" seems to smell more of your bias against and hatred of atheists (still a mystery) because you are literally the only person I've seen suggest this strange claim.

You are asking people to ignore their memories of the last 44 years in preference to your sui generis concept.

 

[Kafka]

It's silly to pretend that it was put in place by popular vote... It was set up and removed in exactly the same way. Now, popular vote can be used in most states to provide the prevailing laws in those states.

I don't believe @Cypress is trying to say it was taken out by popular vote so much as claiming that since the population is shifting to less religious and the president who oversaw the ultimate repeal of Roe was non-religious that it must be an "atheist" policy. My critique of his point is that:

1) Just because Trump may be non-religious does not mean therefore that all policy passed in his administration is hence "non-religious" (that's flawed logic because Trump EXPLICITLY pandered to the religious right pro-life movement for votes (hence his shift from being pro-choice to pro-life upon his nomination to be POTUS back in 2016.

2) Merely noting how popular or unpopular Roe was has nothing to do with the fate of Roe since it was not decided based on a popular appeal but rather through manipulation of SCOTUS seats over many years.

 

[Cypress]

Manifestly it has been.



And, again, that doesn't matter. Roe was taken out by judicial action which is inherently NOT based on polling data or popularity. It is, in fact, why the Religious Right put so much work into it.



This is lazy. You act as if people haven't been watching this unfold exactly as it was over 40 years. This isn't some "cable news manipulation" thing. This long predates cable news shift to pure editorial and many of us actually watched it in real time.

I am genuinely surprised that you never noticed that the GOP has steadily shifted to pandering to the Religious Right. They've literally been doing it since Ronald Reagan played to the Moral Majority.

Your hypothesis that it was driven by "atheists" seems to smell more of your bias against and hatred of atheists (still a mystery) because you are literally the only person I've seen suggest this strange claim.

You are asking people to ignore their memories of the last 44 years in preference to your sui generis concept.

I'm not here to read your personal grievances about me nor your attempts at psychoanalysis. When psychoanalysis is your bag, I am moving on from this string of discussion.

You don't have to accept anything I say, they are just my opinions. Plenty of people have accepted the simplistic narrative cable TV and media personalities have promoted

 

[Kafka]

I'm not here to read your personal grievances about me

You usually lose your ability to discuss a point when you are frustrated. Your hatred blinds you to reason. You seem to have a strong hatred of atheists so you lay this at the feet of atheists.

nor your attempts at psychoanalysis. When psychoanalysis is your bag, I am moving on from this string of discussion.

Will you now start bitching about me to Doc again?

You don't have to accept anything I say, they are just my opinions. Plenty of people have accepted the simplistic narrative cable TV and media personalities have promoted

Your opinions don't seem to be wedded to reality nor can you actually defend it. Hardly my problem.