Question For Conservative Heathens

[OrnotBitwise]

I'm sure you would, but I think you have a higher opinion of those groups on the left than I ever would a fundie.

Fundies are largely talk to you to promote their ideas types, it is an extreme to get one who is willing to kill over it. Even the most fundie person I know spoke hours from the pulpit on those who would being extremely evil... the pastor from that church I spoke of in another thread.

So, while I knew in childhood thousands of fundies (it was a very large church) absolutely none of them ever promoted violence as a means to get what they want.

And only a minute fraction of environmental extremists do so. That tiny fraction -- when I said that a couple of hundred was being generous I was speaking literally -- gets an enormously disproportionate amount of press attention, however.

Not so the violent fundies. The members of that herd get a free pass, largely because the more mainstream Evangelical types won't disown them. Oh, they pay lip service to not supporting violence, but where's the outrage? Where's the condemnation, not just of the overt, physical violence, but the emotional violence done to their own children?

Those are sick, twisted, hateful people, sheltered by the disproportionate clout of their religious brethren.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

You're also correct in that I think far more highly of the motives and ethics of the violent environmental extremists. This isn't surprising since I basically agree with them on most issues. We differ on tactics and the heirarchies of threat.

I do condemn their actions, however, and always have. I've lost friends over it, sad to say.

 

[Damocles]

And only a minute fraction of environmental extremists do so. That tiny fraction -- when I said that a couple of hundred was being generous I was speaking literally -- gets an enormously disproportionate amount of press attention, however.

Not so the violent fundies. The members of that herd get a free pass, largely because the more mainstream Evangelical types won't disown them. Oh, they pay lip service to not supporting violence, but where's the outrage? Where's the condemnation, not just of the overt, physical violence, but the emotional violence done to their own children?

Those are sick, twisted, hateful people, sheltered by the disproportionate clout of their religious brethren.

Rubbish. The condemnation is rarely covered as it isn't all that exciting. I know of not even one christian who condones the actions of those who kill "for Christ". The idea that they all stand around promoting such action is simply unprovable accusation based on enforced ignorance. Rather than speaking with and knowing those on the "opposing" side you sit back and pretend that they are "worse" somehow and "agree" with those on your side but don't promote their action. Must fundies are exactly that way with those that take such violent action...

They are no more promoting the violence than you are. And they too are extremely rare... Like an anarchist with the gumption to actually take action they are very, very rare. So rare that one man alone had to plan and implement attacks, there was nobody to support him. Like the "Unibomber" they work alone as nobody they know are quite as "dedicated" as they are.

As for the action with children, fundies of every type, including ELF and Earth First! fundies tend to teach their children to believe as they do.

 

[Cancel7]

Rubbish. The condemnation is rarely covered as it isn't all that exciting. I know of not even one christian who condones the actions of those who kill "for Christ". The idea that they all stand around promoting such action is simply unprovable accusation based on enforced ignorance. Rather than speaking with and knowing those on the "opposing" side you sit back and pretend that they are "worse" somehow and "agree" with those on your side but don't promote their action. Must fundies are exactly that way with those that take such violent action...

They are no more promoting the violence than you are. And they too are extremely rare... Like an anarchist with the gumption to actually take action they are very, very rare. So rare that one man alone had to plan and implement attacks, there was nobody to support him. Like the "Unibomber" they work alone as nobody they know are quite as "dedicated" as they are.

As for the action with children, fundies of every type, including ELF and Earth First! fundies tend to teach their children to believe as they do.

Hello! The whole argument is rubbish. Like you have anything to back up your statement of "I'd put the number of enviromental terrorists" higher.

Oh you would? Based on? Your emotions. I can ask someone what they think I weigh, and they can say "about 127" and I can say, "well, I'd pu the number lower than that".

Until you break out the scale, you haven't proved shit, except that you'd like to weigh less, or that you have a preconceived bigotry towards leftists. Which you do!

 

[Damocles]

Hello! The whole argument is rubbish. Like you have anything to back up your statement of "I'd put the number of enviromental terrorists" higher.

Oh you would? Based on? Your emotions. I can ask someone what they think I weigh, and they can say "about 127" and I can say, "well, I'd pu the number lower than that".

Until you break out the scale, you haven't proved shit, except that you'd like to weigh less, or that you have a preconceived bigotry towards leftists. Which you do!

I never said higher, I said relatively the same. You are attempting to argue against an assumed opinion of mine again, each time you do that you wind up making such inane statements. Read what I said then continue with this conversation.

He made a statement of how he agreed with them yet condemned their activity, I made a statement of how every fundie that I grew up with did the same on the other side. I also made an observation based on the reality of the moron who bombed both an abortion clinic and later the Olympics... Each were based on facts and not "emotive" nor on any preconceived idea of lefties. I don't think lefties are anything other than people. I think "fundies" can be found in any extreme group, and in like numbers because they are people. In fact, in my sociology class I learned of specific studies that came up with data to back that assertion up as well.

Thank you for attempting to give me my opinion, but you once again have failed in your empathic ability to "get inside" my head.

 

[Cancel7]

I never said higher, I said relatively the same. You are attempting to argue against an assumed opinion of mine again, each time you do that you wind up making such inane statements. Read what I said then continue with this conversation.

Fine Damo, whether you said higher or the same, the fact is, you don't have any evidence of any of this. Both of your opinions are based on emotions and sympathy towards some goals of each party. Ornot admits it and you don't. You're just throwing a statement out there. I don't know the figures either, but don't claim to. I do know that several reports have surfaced since bush took office saying that far right groups are not being watched the way far left groups are, and that in fact, far left groups are the only ones being put on terrorist watch lists.

And unless you believe that Timothy McVeigh was a leftist, that's a big mistake.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

Rubbish. The condemnation is rarely covered as it isn't all that exciting. I know of not even one christian who condones the actions of those who kill "for Christ". The idea that they all stand around promoting such action is simply unprovable accusation based on enforced ignorance. Rather than speaking with and knowing those on the "opposing" side you sit back and pretend that they are "worse" somehow and "agree" with those on your side but don't promote their action. Must fundies are exactly that way with those that take such violent action...

They are no more promoting the violence than you are. And they too are extremely rare... Like an anarchist with the gumption to actually take action they are very, very rare. So rare that one man alone had to plan and implement attacks, there was nobody to support him. Like the "Unibomber" they work alone as nobody they know are quite as "dedicated" as they are.

As for the action with children, fundies of every type, including ELF and Earth First! fundies tend to teach their children to believe as they do.

Your single-minded focus on purely physical violence is obfuscatory. There are other sins, if you'll pardon the expression.

There are tens of thousands of militant Christians of the basest, most barbaric sort, against maybe a couple of hundred of the most militant environmental extremists. I know whom I consider to be the worse threat. By a planetary diameter.

 

[Damocles]

Fine Damo, whether you said higher or the same, the fact is, you don't have any evidence of any of this. Both of your opinions are based on emotions and sympathy towards some goals of each party. Ornot admits it and you don't. You're just throwing a statement out there. I don't know the figures either, but don't claim to. I do know that several reports have surfaced since bush took office saying that far right groups are not being watched the way far left groups are, and that in fact, far left groups are the only ones being put on terrorist watch lists.

And unless you believe that Timothy McVeigh was a leftist, that's a big mistake.

But I do. I have given actual information of a bomber and how he worked alone.

Then I gave experience, as did Ornot and I notice you are not promoting his lack of "evidence", of actual people that I know. I later gave information about classes I took that reflected the same....

You have only your emotive ideation of how I believe in something that I have yet to iterate at all.

 

[Damocles]

Your single-minded focus on purely physical violence is obfuscatory. There are other sins, if you'll pardon the expression.

There are tens of thousands of militant Christians of the basest, most barbaric sort, against maybe a couple of hundred of the most militant environmental extremists. I know whom I consider to be the worse threat. By a planetary diameter.

You however forgive many of the "other sins" of the left because of your agreement. Many of the same type of teaching goes into both types of fundie. That they are of a type that agrees with your side, believe me Fundie Christians are not among those I agree with so that falls flat on its face.

The people who would destroy another's property, who would make laws based on their fundie ideation, etc. are found in every one of these groups as well as those who use many of the same ideas to teach their children to act the same as they come to their age...

Fundies can be found in every group of people with beliefs. Even some that believe that humans should extinct themselves so the planet can go on without our "evil" influence.

 

[Cancel7]

But I do. I have given actual information of a bomber and how he worked alone.

Then I gave experience, as did Ornot and I notice you are not promoting his lack of "evidence", of actual people that I know. I later gave information about classes I took that reflected the same....

You have only your emotive ideation of how I believe in something that I have yet to iterate at all.

I'd like to see the statistics. The cold hard data. Not classes and people you've known. My cousin is one of the most prominent environmentalists in New York State. Neither she, nor anyone she works with has ever or would ever advocate violence. But that means nothing statistically. I don't even for a moment believe that I'm not predisposed on this question. But I don't believe that you are either!

 

[Damocles]

I'd like to see the statistics. The cold hard data. Not classes and people you've known. My cousin is one of the most prominent environmentalists in New York State. Neither she, nor anyone she works with has ever or would ever advocate violence. But that means nothing statistically. I don't even for a moment believe that I'm not predisposed on this question. But I don't believe that you are either!

Okay, but you want me to give them while none are given by those on the other side than their own personal experience? That's a fair lot.

I'll see if I can find that textbook, I've kept them all.

 

[Damocles]

I'd like to see the statistics. The cold hard data. Not classes and people you've known. My cousin is one of the most prominent environmentalists in New York State. Neither she, nor anyone she works with has ever or would ever advocate violence. But that means nothing statistically. I don't even for a moment believe that I'm not predisposed on this question. But I don't believe that you are either!

How, my fellow Buddhists promote fundie Christianity? I don't think so.

 

[OrnotBitwise]

You however forgive many of the "other sins" of the left because of your agreement. Many of the same type of teaching goes into both types of fundie. That they are of a type that agrees with your side, believe me Fundie Christians are not among those I agree with so that falls flat on its face.

The people who would destroy another's property, who would make laws based on their fundie ideation, etc. are found in every one of these groups as well as those who use many of the same ideas to teach their children to act the same as they come to their age...

Fundies can be found in every group of people with beliefs. Even some that believe that humans should extinct themselves so the planet can go on without our "evil" influence.

Perhaps. I think you misapprehend exactly what it is about the teachings of the snake charmers I find evil, however.

You also advocate laws based on your ideation. Everyone does. It's the content of the ideation itself to which I object.

 

[Cancel7]

How, my fellow Buddhists promote fundie Christianity? I don't think so.

No, but you are one of those who is always more willing to give the benefit of the doubt to someone on the right but not on the left. You are more sympathetic to those on the right. You are highly invested in the idea that the left is worse than the right. It comes across in most of your posts, whether you see it or not. And I'm sure that you do not, because along with all of your other attributes, you Damo, are fair and balanced in all that you say, do and believe.

 

[Damocles]

I don't think that religious radicals are conservative. They are radicals. They promote changing laws, not keeping them off the books, etc. I also promote actual conservatism to remove them from their roles as they are a bane, IMO to actual conservatism.

 

[Damocles]

Perhaps. I think you misapprehend exactly what it is about the teachings of the snake charmers I find evil, however.

You also advocate laws based on your ideation. Everyone does. It's the content of the ideation itself to which I object.

My ideation doesn't consist of religious radicalism.

 

[Cancel7]

I don't think that religious radicals are conservative. They are radicals. They promote changing laws, not keeping them off the books, etc. I also promote actual conservatism to remove them from their roles as they are a bane, IMO to actual conservatism.

OK. Well, I wish you a lot of luck with that.

But actually, I think that the religious far right is going to be playing much less of a role in the near future than they have enjoyed in the recent past. But they wont' go away. They will regroup, re-organize and be back. Because that's what they do. Still, I'm looking forward to the respite.

 

[Damocles]

OK. Well, I wish you a lot of luck with that.

But actually, I think that the religious far right is going to be playing much less of a role in the near future than they have enjoyed in the recent past. But they wont' go away. They will regroup, re-organize and be back. Because that's what they do. Still, I'm looking forward to the respite.

I agree. But the likelihood of success should not be a factor in the promotion of strong belief.

So, you can judge my ideation based on what you suspect me to believe because of my party affiliation, or you can ask questions and find out what I actually belive. Believe it or not there is a huge diversity among "conservatives" (as I said I don't necessarily believe all with that label to be conservatives) and I too am looking forward to the time when my type can take a lead.

 

[uscitizen]

OK. Well, I wish you a lot of luck with that.

But actually, I think that the religious far right is going to be playing much less of a role in the near future than they have enjoyed in the recent past. But they wont' go away. They will regroup, re-organize and be back. Because that's what they do. Still, I'm looking forward to the respite.

Daayum! this thread got smokin. Yes a respite would be nice about now.

 

[Cancel5]

Rubbish. The condemnation is rarely covered as it isn't all that exciting. I know of not even one christian who condones the actions of those who kill "for Christ". The idea that they all stand around promoting such action is simply unprovable accusation based on enforced ignorance. Rather than speaking with and knowing those on the "opposing" side you sit back and pretend that they are "worse" somehow and "agree" with those on your side but don't promote their action. Must fundies are exactly that way with those that take such violent action...

They are no more promoting the violence than you are. And they too are extremely rare... Like an anarchist with the gumption to actually take action they are very, very rare. So rare that one man alone had to plan and implement attacks, there was nobody to support him. Like the "Unibomber" they work alone as nobody they know are quite as "dedicated" as they are.

As for the action with children, fundies of every type, including ELF and Earth First! fundies tend to teach their children to believe as they do.

Those who kill for Christ...people don't express it that way, but how about, "God is on our side"

I know of many fine young men who are Christian and claim they fight this war for God and country.

Maybe Christians don't run around whooping and shooting off their guns, maybe they don't walk with signs that claim, death to all kafir, but I know quite a few of them that have "nuke 'em and let God sort them out" mentality.

Christians such a Aquinas, Ambrose and Augustine laid down the rules for a just war...I wonder how many Christians have read their works. It is probably the only thing of Augustine's that I could agree with.