Racing Past the Constitution
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Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
The supply side is not motivated to increase, what is the incentive for doctors?
Doctors are paid for each patient they treat just like being paid for each widget you make.The more patients (widgets) the bigger the paycheck.
Presently, doctors are paid well for each patient they see, and they can see as many patients as they desire. Some doctors are motivated to make more money, so they see more patients, others are more motivated to play golf, so they see fewer patients. Under a "universal" plan, doctors will not be able to set their prices, because the government won't pay them, so it means, less golf and more seeing patients and making less money.
So, it's not the same as widgets in a factory, unless the government takes over the widget factory and tells all the workers they must now produce twice as many widgets for the same pay.
Well, that IS the case in America, and the reason people buy health insurance is the same reason people buy anything else, benefits. Insurance doesn't magically give you the ability to receive medical care!
As much as it's talked about, I only know of one person who has ever declared bankruptcy due to medical bills. If this were such a rampant problem, it seems I would know more than one.
People getting well depends on a lot of things, the least of which is whether or not they have government funded insurance. Again, insurance doesn't give you a magic "get well" ticket!
People probably confuse socialist initiatives with socialism because they are both socialist. I need to correct something you said, the government doesn't pay for anything, the government doesn't earn an income. We The People (the taxpayers) pay for the interstates.
How can you possibly state how long the waits will be? You don't KNOW a damn thing! You've just got this bird-brained idea in your head, and whatever you have to spew out to support it, you will. The Utopian Liberal Fantasyland is a wonderful place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Here's the reality... fewer doctors... fewer well-qualified and competent doctors.... more demand (because Uncle Sam is paying.) You can do the math, but health care services are already stretched to the limits because of illegal immigration, adding to the demand side is not going to HELP anything!
It's not a claim, it's a fact. Every hospital in America is obligated to care for the indigent. Go look it up if you don't believe me! People aren't dying in the streets due to lack of medical attention, that hasn't happened in America in about 100 years.
Yes, hospitals and doctors would be obligated to care for every patient, but the patients are no longer responsible for the bill, and the government is not going to just pay whatever the hospital and doctors want to charge, they will have limits and restrictions, as well as the wheelbarrow full of government forms to fill out. So, universal health care will give us several things we know of, let's summarize... Fewer qualified and competent doctors... more patients... less "profit" per patient... more paperwork. I'm not an 'expert' but I don't see the formula for improving medical care here.
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
I refuse to progress beyond liberty, and beyond Locke. I hate leftists for not allowing the American experiment to continue on its merry way. WE IMMIGRATED HERE FOR A REASON!!! Europe sux already, so let it be the lab rat for more failed ideology. This time we can remain neutral for a change and let them fail without us.
charver
You lookin' at my pint?
Calm down there, Three. Deep breaths.
Remember, you didn't emigrate to the US, you were born there.
Hope This Helps.
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
Calm down there, Three. Deep breaths.
Remember, you didn't emigrate to the US, you were born there.
Hope This Helps.
Then tell all the US liberals here that we are not, in fact, "a nation of immigrants."
I just use to caps lock to be cool...
charver
You lookin' at my pint?
Then tell all the US liberals here that we are not, in fact, "a nation of immigrants."
I just use to caps lock to be cool...
I'm always happy to oblige.
Liberals. Listen up - You are not "a nation of immigrants"*
*May not include actual immigrants wot have migrated and that
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
Nicely done, you even provided the necessary disclaimer...
TuTu Monroe
A Realist
I am so happy you feel better now, but you're still wrong. 
When the economy was in full swing universal medical and alternative energy and other initiatives should have been implemented. Way back in the early 90's Hillary tried to make changes to the medical but was stopped at every turn.
Even when the Repubs took over there was a surplus. What did Cheney say? The money was there and war was an option so he chose war.
No, it's not the best time to implement some of Obama's plans but the best time has passed and there is no better time coming in the foreseeable future.
From the time I first took an interest in politics I continually heard the government say they couldn't afford "this" or "that". I finally realized it had little to do with affordability and all to do with what they wanted to spend money on.
There was never money for social programs but always money for some pet
project. When it came time for governments to trim their budget welfare payments were reduced and unemployment insurance restrictions were increased. When the economy did recover, like during the 90s boom, what did the government offer the poor?
One doesn't have to be a conspiracy fan to realize the best way to prevent social programs from coming into existence is to get rid of surpluses. Add to that tax cuts and the government can say, "We can't afford that. We don't have the money."
Obama knows if he doesn't implement his plans now they'll never happen and nothing will get done, again. There will always be another war, another tax cut, another politician saying "We can't afford that". Obama is saying, "We've already waited too long. Find the money!"
(I feel better now.)
apple0154
MEOW
"Universal" plans are run differently. Some places require doctors to work under the plan or the government won't issue them a license to practice. Other places allow the doctor to opt out so he can work part time under the plan and part time on his own.
For example, the doctor agrees to see "X" amount of patients at a set rate and the government pays them that rate. The patient has a choice to wait until a doctor is available or they can pay to see the doctor who isn't under the plan. What happens is if a person requires an operation and hospital stay costing tens of thousands of dollars they can decide to wait or they can pay the doctor and hospital themselves.
All emergency cases are taken right away. For example, if a person has appendicitis they will be operated on immediately at no cost. If they are diagnosed with gall stones due to discomfort and their family doctor recommends an operation they can pay a doctor and hospital and have the operation done immediately or they can stop eating fatty foods and wait a few weeks for an available doctor at no charge.
Most doctors don't want to opt out completely from the plan because most people are not going to pay a large sum of money if it's matter of waiting a few weeks.
It's the same principal with drugs. The government decides how much money they will pay for a drug. If the drug company does not agree that drug is not prescribed by doctors or the doctor will tell the patient it's not covered. Unless the drug is a one-of-a-kind, miracle drug patients will opt for the drug covered by the government plan.
For example, maybe an anti-inflammatory drug is coated to prevent stomach upset but the price is high so the government does not cover it. The patient opts for the drug that is covered by the plan and takes the medicine with food to prevent stomach upset.
In many cases the company that makes the coated drug will reduce their price considering they will gain thousands of patients as the drug will then be covered by the plan.
Most people think that most of those who file bankruptcy did so because they got way over their heads in credit card debt; however, research shows the truth is much more surprising. For the years 2003 and 2004, just over 50 percent of all personal bankruptcies were the result of medical debt by those with health insurance. http://www.bcsalliance.com/y_debt_medical.html
Half of all U.S. bankruptcies are caused by soaring medical bills and most people sent into debt by illness are middle-class workers with health insurance, researchers said on Wednesday. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0202-08.htm
About 2 million Americans a year are in families that experience a bankruptcy following illness or injury, representing about half of all bankruptcies in the United States. Most of those filings were middle-class workers who had health insurance at the onset of their medical difficulties, according to Health Affairs medical journal.http://www.mynippon.com/lifestyle/avoid-medical-bankruptcy.htm
Half of all bankruptcies. Don't you find that appalling? Imagine being sick and having to worry about losing everything you had. Imagine being a parent and knowing in order to get better you are going to subject your children to years of poverty. IMO, it's nothing short of vile in a country as rich as the US.
The least? So, this whole idea of keeping up ones spirit and having a good outlook has nothing to do with getting well? Knowing that once you get better, if you do, you will have lost your home and ability to get credit but that's not of any concern? Is that what you're implying?
Ahhh, now we're entering the "understanding things outside ones little world" zone that TuTu Monroe commented on. You see, Dixie, I do know. Just as the millions of people who live in countries that have universal medicare know. Do a google and check it out sometime.
Universal medicare does not mean anyone can walk in off the street and demand free medical services so illegal immigration has nothing to do with it. People have a medical card similar to a credit card. It is swiped through a machine similar to when you pay for a dinner or an article of clothing. No card, no medical service.
As for the "demand side" we're not talking Vegas vacations or gifts from Victoria's Secret.
The only demand will be from people who are ill and ill people need to be treated. Individuals are not going to start jumping in front of cars so they can get free medical care. As for the shortage of doctors, well, that goes to the root of a problem Obama is trying to address. Post secondary education has to be affordable. From nurses to pharmacists it's not unusual for one to study for a profession and then continue on to be a doctor. Of course, if one can not afford to attend school to become a pharmacist they certainly won't be thinking about becoming a doctor.
A single mom, the bread-winning family man....drive them to the point of indigence and then treat them for free. Well, I'll be damned! The solution has been staring us in the face all along.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Topspin, are they putting something new in the crack you're smoking these days? The KKK doesn't fund the prison system in Alabama, nor does it have a thing to do with criminal justice here. And regardless of what crime they were jailed for violating, I think there are probably more than 25% blacks in jail in Alabama.
It's interesting... You say Doctors are raping patients, but your solution is to turn it over to government for them to be in charge, as if government somehow has a way of operating so efficiently, doctors will reduce their prices and still make great profits, and everyone will be cared for in the end. Just exactly how do you get there?
The way I see it, if doctors are already charging too much, entangling the government with their bureaucratic red tape and regulations, while dramatically increasing demand, is going to make prices go higher. Unless you advocate government regulation of what docs can charge, then you will see a dramatic decline in doctors. Either way, you aren't going to help this problem by implementing Socialist Medicine.
apple0154
MEOW
Remain neutral? Let them fail without us? It was "us" who sold financial instruments not worth the paper they're printed on.
apple0154
MEOW
I am so happy you feel better now, but you're still wrong.
"I am so happy you feel better now"
I think that's the nicest thing a lady can ever say to a man.
apple0154
MEOW
You trust the government with control and accountability of nuclear bombs and you trust the government to defend the country against terrorists but when it comes to organizing an efficient medical system you don't trust them? If that's the case then that's interesting.
Not every doctor is interested in becoming extremely wealthy. Many are family men and women pursuing a chosen career and the first thing that happens under a universal medical plan is every doctor gets paid.
With 50% of bankruptcies resulting from non-payment of medical bills there has to be doctors that are not getting paid, at all, for certain services.
Again, can you think of any country that had a universal medical plan and scrapped it to return to the type of medical system now in place in the US?
Different nationalities, different religious beliefs, different cultures and languages....why do all those people agree universal medical is better? Doesn't that tell you something?
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
My reference was to statist governments taking hold in Europe and raping the continent.
TuTu Monroe
A Realist
Apple of my eye, you should know by now that everything government touches, they screw it up. Everything.
When the economy was in full swing universal medical and alternative energy and other initiatives should have been implemented. Way back in the early 90's Hillary tried to make changes to the medical but was stopped at every turn.
Even when the Repubs took over there was a surplus. What did Cheney say? The money was there and war was an option so he chose war.
No, it's not the best time to implement some of Obama's plans but the best time has passed and there is no better time coming in the foreseeable future.
From the time I first took an interest in politics I continually heard the government say they couldn't afford "this" or "that". I finally realized it had little to do with affordability and all to do with what they wanted to spend money on.
There was never money for social programs but always money for some pet
project. When it came time for governments to trim their budget welfare payments were reduced and unemployment insurance restrictions were increased. When the economy did recover, like during the 90s boom, what did the government offer the poor?
One doesn't have to be a conspiracy fan to realize the best way to prevent social programs from coming into existence is to get rid of surpluses. Add to that tax cuts and the government can say, "We can't afford that. We don't have the money."
Obama knows if he doesn't implement his plans now they'll never happen and nothing will get done, again. There will always be another war, another tax cut, another politician saying "We can't afford that". Obama is saying, "We've already waited too long. Find the money!"
(I feel better now.)
christiefan915
Catalyst
If bu$h inherited a recession and knew he inherited one, why didn't he do something in eight years to turn it around? And please don't say he was stymied by the Democrats in Congress.
You (pl.) can't blame Obama for worsening the financial crisis, if you don't apply the same standards to bu$h.
You (pl.) can't blame Obama for worsening the financial crisis, if you don't apply the same standards to bu$h.
christiefan915
Catalyst
It was also known that North Korea had WMD's but the repubs didn't make a case for invading that country. We know that WMD's weren't the underlying cause for invading Iraq.
The CBO can predict and project anything they want but that doesn't mean those predictions will come to pass. Hundreds of years ago Malthus predicted a catastrophe based on population growth but that day of reckoning never came.
The CBO can predict and project anything they want but that doesn't mean those predictions will come to pass. Hundreds of years ago Malthus predicted a catastrophe based on population growth but that day of reckoning never came.
Minister of Truth
Practically Perfect
The argument against attacking N. Korea, as you well know, is that it is too late, because they are capable of launching serious missile strikes against anyone in the region, and have the range to strike any US city on the Pacific Coast.
This is somewhat a matter of the doctrine of pre-emption, whether or not one agrees with it...
TuTu Monroe
A Realist
The recession was short because neither Clinton nor Bush meddled in it. I have to give Clinton credit for that. He did the right thing.
You are trying to tell me what I can or cannot say?
That will be the day.
You are trying to tell me what I can or cannot say?
That will be the day.