Real estate insiders bewildered by judge’s $18M valuation of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago: ‘Wou

QP! said:
He defrauded NYS and this stage will determine how much the damages are.


For derps i know you will struggle with this (thinking that is) but let me explain it.

I want you to think of the year 2007 and all the fraudulent mortgages that were sitting in the system like a time bomb.

Simply because it was not 2008 yet and nothing had gone wrong does not mean fraud was not committed in filing those loans.

(Now pay attention to this next part and read it twice)

And EVEN IF those loans did not fail and got paid back the FRAUD STILL TOOK PLACE.

You cannot use the fallacy of Results based Thinking and say 'it is fraud if the loans fail and are not paid back' but it is 'not fraud if you pay the loan back'. Because that would mean EVERYONE could gamble and lie on all such forms and only the people who failed would get charged.

The System does not want that risk in the system where all bank forms are lies and that is why the Fraud law exists.
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Then NYS should already have a figure for how much. The courts shouldn't be determining that. Fraud involves two things: Lying with the intent to gain from that, and the party lied to loses something in the process.

If you lied to get a loan and it was paid back in full the party that made the loan wasn't defrauded. They lost nothing even though the other party lied.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/white-collar-crimes/fraud/

Yes, only people who fail would get charged. If someone gambles on the lie, they are taking that chance. That means even with that system, only some bank forms, the same ones, would be lied on in either case. Those not wishing to take risks would still tell the truth.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Then NYS should already have a figure for how much. The courts shouldn't be determining that. Fraud involves two things: Lying with the intent to gain from that, and the party lied to loses something in the process.

If you lied to get a loan and it was paid back in full the party that made the loan wasn't defrauded. They lost nothing even though the other party lied.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/white-collar-crimes/fraud/

Yes, only people who fail would get charged. If someone gambles on the lie, they are taking that chance. That means even with that system, only some bank forms, the same ones, would be lied on in either case. Those not wishing to take risks would still tell the truth.
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WTF are talking about? Did you read what you quoted which specifically says the FRAUD OCCURS (llegality occurs) in the SCHEME TO OBTAIN and does not say 'in the obtaining of'???




Criminal Fraud Law

A deliberate scheme to obtain financial or similar gain by using false statements, misrepresentations, concealment of important information, or deceptive conduct is known as fraud. Fraud typically involves getting property to which someone is not legally entitled, but it is different from criminal offenses categorized as theft in two important ways. Theft generally involves directly obtaining money or something else of value by stealing it, or by the use or threat of force. The offenses included in the category of fraud, by contrast, involve a “scheme or artifice” to convince someone to give something of value based on false statements or false pretenses. Fraud is therefore often considered a form of white collar crime, unlike most forms of theft.

The second key difference between fraud and theft is that the “scheme or artifice” is the key element of a fraud offense, instead of the actual wrongful acquisition of property. This means that a person could be found guilty of fraud even if the scheme does not succeed...
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How the fuck do you cite this article and then say that financial loss must have happened, when even if the scheme does not end up happening (submission of fraudulent loan doc's does not even result in a loan) you are still guilty of fraud.

Meaning if the bank handed over all the signed fraudelent doc's to the police but did not loan you money you could still be charged and convicted.


And the Court is ALWAYS involved in determining damages. Lettitia already put in the State is seeking $250MM and then additional damages on top.
 
QP! said:
WTF are talking about? Did you read what you quoted which specifically says the FRAUD OCCURS (llegality occurs) in the SCHEME TO OBTAIN and does not say 'in the obtaining of'???







How the fuck do you cite this article and then say that financial loss must have happened, when even if the scheme does not end up happening (submission of fraudulent loan doc's does not even result in a loan) you are still guilty of fraud.

Meaning if the bank handed over all the signed fraudelent doc's to the police but did not loan you money you could still be charged and convicted.


And the Court is ALWAYS involved in determining damages. Lettitia already put in the State is seeking $250MM and then additional damages on top.
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Okay, then let's say the courts prove fraud, and there was no monetary damages involved because the state didn't lose anything from it. Seems to me the remedy is to charge Trump $1 as a token to signify that he lied on the forms by paid back all the money. That wouldn't be the first time that has been done in US history. The state shouldn't be enriched because of Trump's actions any more than his actions shouldn't be acknowledged as wrong.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Okay, then let's say the courts prove fraud, and there was no monetary damages involved because the state didn't lose anything from it. Seems to me the remedy is to charge Trump $1 as a token to signify that he lied on the forms by paid back all the money. That wouldn't be the first time that has been done in US history. The state shouldn't be enriched because of Trump's actions any more than his actions shouldn't be acknowledged as wrong.
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So you are just moving on from the stupidity of your last post. Ok fine.

That is not how Fraud works at a State or even Bank level.

What you are arguing for is that EVERYBODY should just try and get loans thru fraud, and the entire system should be full of fraudulent valuations and claims. And as long as they all pay back, then no one gets charged.

What you are ignoring is the massive amount of risk this then builds in to the system, which is what crashed the Markets in 2008 but did not crash the markets in 2007.

You are arguing for a standard in 2007 that all that fraud in the system is ok, as it has not yet triggered losses.

the COST to NYS and the banking sector is not tied to the losses or pay back of any singular participant (Trump or other) and is tied to the integrity of the ENTIRE system being compromised, whether an individual (like Trump) pays back or not.

If we allow everyone to do what Trump did, some will succeed and some will fail but the systemic risk and cost exists regardless. The PENALITY has to be looked at almost like an insurance pool where regardless of failure to pay back or success ALL FRAUDSTERS are made to pay.
 
Nordberg said:
Technical? Super big evaluations against small ones? Trump did it on a grand scale. Anyone can understand those numbers.
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Will you agree that EnGöring lied and undervalued Mar-A-Lago in order to deny Trump a fair trial?

An undeveloped 2 acre plot without beach access adjacent just sold for $46 million. Judge EnGöring was provided this information yet still gave the absurd valuation. Clear bias on his part and open corruption to taint the proceedings.
 
Uncensored2008 said:
Well THAT is a fucking lie. Laticia James and Judge EnGöring violated the United States Constitution by crafting a statute that denies the defendant.

[FONT=cnn_sans_display]“Under 63 (12), which is what this case is, you don’t have a right, an absolute right to a jury,” [/FONT]

EnGöring DENIED the request for a jury trial.


https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/04/politics/trump-new-york-case-no-jury/index.html
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Some day, handjob, you will actually read the items posted for you:

But legal experts familiar with New York state law say that the question of whether Trump could have sought a jury trial is complicated. While Trump may not have been likely to succeed, experts said the question of a jury trial is something that Trump’s lawyers could have tried to litigate.

It’s not entirely clear whether Trump would have been entitled to a jury trial under New York law – that would depend on nuanced legal determinations about the nature of the remedy sought by the attorney general,” said Elie Honig, a CNN senior legal analyst and former federal and New Jersey prosecutor. “But Trump’s legal team absolutely could have requested a jury, litigated the issue, and then appealed had they lost.”

At the start of the trial, Engoron noted that no parties in the case requested a jury trial and that the law mandated a “bench trial” decided by a judge.

“You have probably noticed or already read that this case has no jury,” Engoron said. “Neither side asked for one and, in any event, the remedies sought are all equitable in nature, mandating that the trial be a bench trial, one that a judge alone decides.”
 
floridafan said:
Keep dancing honey bee! You are so fullofshit.
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I was wrong.

His legal team DID request a jury trial and that corrupt fuck EnGöring DENIED it, in direct violation of the 7th Amendment of the Constitution.

This guarantees a federal appeal and that EnGöring will be overturned, BUT the scumbag will pay no penalty for his criminal acts. EnGöring seeks to corrupt the 2024 presidential election with his crimes. He doesn't care that he'll be overturned - why would he?
 
Uncensored2008 said:
I was wrong.

His legal team DID request a jury trial and that corrupt fuck EnGöring DENIED it, in direct violation of the 7th Amendment of the Constitution.

This guarantees a federal appeal and that EnGöring will be overturned, BUT the scumbag will pay no penalty for his criminal acts. EnGöring seeks to corrupt the 2024 presidential election with his crimes. He doesn't care that he'll be overturned - why would he?
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Please document for us, where his attorneys requested a jury trial!!
I guarantee its just more of your bullshit.
 
floridafan said:
Some day, handjob, you will actually read the items posted for you:

But legal experts familiar with New York state law say that the question of whether Trump could have sought a jury trial is complicated. While Trump may not have been likely to succeed, experts said the question of a jury trial is something that Trump’s lawyers could have tried to litigate.

It’s not entirely clear whether Trump would have been entitled to a jury trial under New York law – that would depend on nuanced legal determinations about the nature of the remedy sought by the attorney general,” said Elie Honig, a CNN senior legal analyst and former federal and New Jersey prosecutor. “But Trump’s legal team absolutely could have requested a jury, litigated the issue, and then appealed had they lost.”

At the start of the trial, Engoron noted that no parties in the case requested a jury trial and that the law mandated a “bench trial” decided by a judge.

“You have probably noticed or already read that this case has no jury,” Engoron said. “Neither side asked for one and, in any event, the remedies sought are all equitable in nature, mandating that the trial be a bench trial, one that a judge alone decides.”
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Someday anal fuck, you'll read what you post. " Trump may not have been likely to succeed"

So let's review, notorious Trump hater Arthur EnGöring DENIED Trump the right to trial by jury in direct violation of the United States Constitution. Corrupt fuck that he is.
 
Uncensored2008 said:
Someday anal fuck, you'll read what you post. " Trump may not have been likely to succeed"

So let's review, notorious Trump hater Arthur EnGöring DENIED Trump the right to trial by jury in direct violation of the United States Constitution. Corrupt fuck that he is.
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First my dear, you never succeed without trying. Trumps attorneys never even tried.
Secondly, read the NY State law that applies to this, you idiot!
 
Trump says his Mira Lago is worth a billion or a billion and a half. How stupid is he? Is he prepared to pay back taxes on that amount? The low-grade idiot made everything worse for himself.
 
floridafan said:
First my dear, you never succeed without trying. Trumps attorneys never even tried.
Secondly, read the NY State law that applies to this, you idiot!
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The proceeding is rigged - openly.

EnGöring is pursuing a vendetta against Trump and has no respect for the Constitution or rule of law.
 
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