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[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I certainly don't need lessons from a moron that can't do simple math and denied that Florida was a member of the CSA.

Slavery was permitted under the notion that states had the right to determine their own laws concerning the treatement of inhabitants. This is what you champion.

Slavery was ended without a basis for further legal challenge after the 13th amendment which would not have passed prior to the civil war. It certainly did grant new powers to the federal government.

Section 1. Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Section 2. Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.[SUP][2][/SUP]

I'm not arguing what the 13th Amendment says, or that it was ratified by the States, giving the Federal government power to enforce it. The fact that it is the 13th such Amendment to the Constitution, should reveal that we have a process by which this happens, which had been used before by the Federal government. You seem to now want to replace "Federal government" with "US Congress" and pretend that's what you are talking about, and these are two completely different entities. The Federal government is made up of Congress (Legislative Branch), the President (Executive Branch), and the SCOTUS (Judicial Branch). Prior to ratification of the 13th Amendment, those three bodies mostly agreed with slavery as an institution and upheld a constitutional support for it. Nothing changed with regard to granting Federal government more power or special power, the states ratified an Amendment, changing the Constitution.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You want to argue it was all about slavery? Okay.

They were able to make property in other men due to the laws of their state and they seceded because they believed the "right" to dertmine that was soon going to be taken away from them.

It was about PRINCIPLE not slavery. The SCOTUS ruling was; It's perfectly legal to own slaves, they are property. This is the United States Supreme Court, not the Confederate Court. This was THEIR ruling, long before there was ever mention of a CSA. Now, from a purely principled standpoint, how can the SCOTUS rule that something is your property and you legally own it, but the Federal government can simply take it away from you and make it illegal to own? The SCOTUS cited the 4th Amendment, and this is where the principles were found in the CSA argument as well. THEY didn't make the fucking SCOTUS rulings!

Of course, we aren't allowed to be honest and look at this from the perspectives of 1860s Americans, we have to filter this through the modern era, Civil Rights, and the deplorable way people view slavery today, and render this into the debate, as if the CSA were just a bunch of hick racists, which they still remain to this day. That's just a blatantly dishonest approach and view of our history, and exemplifies a profound ignorant bigotry. Lincoln wanted to ship the slaves off to some god-forsaken land far away! His own words: "The negro will never be able to [socially mix] with whites." We sometimes forget, America in 1860, was VERY prejudiced toward blacks. Not just in the South, not just below the Mason-Dixion, but essentially, everywhere. We had upheld an institution of slavery for nearly a century before the Civil War, some of our Founding Fathers owned slaves.

 

[Timshel]

I'm not arguing what the 13th Amendment says, or that it was ratified by the States, giving the Federal government power to enforce it. The fact that it is the 13th such Amendment to the Constitution, should reveal that we have a process by which this happens, which had been used before by the Federal government. You seem to now want to replace "Federal government" with "US Congress" and pretend that's what you are talking about, and these are two completely different entities. The Federal government is made up of Congress (Legislative Branch), the President (Executive Branch), and the SCOTUS (Judicial Branch). Prior to ratification of the 13th Amendment, those three bodies mostly agreed with slavery as an institution and upheld a constitutional support for it. Nothing changed with regard to granting Federal government more power or special power, the states ratified an Amendment, changing the Constitution.

I am not replacing anything. The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT had no constitutional power to prohibit slavery prior to the 13th amendment. Lincoln's emancipation proclamation freed slaves but would have likely been challenged as only having force of law during the war.

Amendments are not passsed by the federal government alone.

 

[Timshel]

It was about PRINCIPLE not slavery. The SCOTUS ruling was; It's perfectly legal to own slaves, they are property. This is the United States Supreme Court, not the Confederate Court. This was THEIR ruling, long before there was ever mention of a CSA. Now, from a purely principled standpoint, how can the SCOTUS rule that something is your property and you legally own it, but the Federal government can simply take it away from you and make it illegal to own? The SCOTUS cited the 4th Amendment, and this is where the principles were found in the CSA argument as well. THEY didn't make the fucking SCOTUS rulings!

Of course, we aren't allowed to be honest and look at this from the perspectives of 1860s Americans, we have to filter this through the modern era, Civil Rights, and the deplorable way people view slavery today, and render this into the debate, as if the CSA were just a bunch of hick racists, which they still remain to this day. That's just a blatantly dishonest approach and view of our history, and exemplifies a profound ignorant bigotry. Lincoln wanted to ship the slaves off to some god-forsaken land far away! His own words: "The negro will never be able to [socially mix] with whites." We sometimes forget, America in 1860, was VERY prejudiced toward blacks. Not just in the South, not just below the Mason-Dixion, but essentially, everywhere. We had upheld an institution of slavery for nearly a century before the Civil War, some of our Founding Fathers owned slaves.

It was about the principle that one man could own another and your principle of "State's rights" to justify tyranny. They should have changed their own laws to outlaw slavery and then joined the northern states in supporting an amendment to the constitution, without war. But they wanted to maintain a feudal system complete with serfdom.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I am not replacing anything. The FEDERAL GOVERNMENT had no constitutional power to prohibit slavery prior to the 13th amendment. Lincoln's emancipation proclamation freed slaves but would have likely been challenged as only having force of law during the war.

Amendments are not passsed by the federal government alone.

Well, the Federal government had no constitutional power to prohibit slavery before the 13th Amendment, and the South had a legitimate argument then! Lincoln's emancipation freed CSA slaves, because he lacked the Constitutional authority to free US slaves, there was no 13th Amendment at this time. Congress had repeatedly failed to act on mounds of legislation regarding slavery, the SCOTUS continued to uphold constitutionality of slavery, and maintain the slaves were owned outright property of those who purchased them. Congress had even gone so far as to outright ban slave trading, we didn't have boats streaming in from Africa anymore, that had gone away. Lincoln and certain members of Congress, lobbied for and received, money to purchase land to repatriate the soon-to-be freed slaves to. There is a deep and storied history regarding all of this, and it's important we have discussions centered on it, rather than some ignorant bigoted myth.

No... Amendments aren't passed AT ALL by the Federal government. Amendments have to be considered by both houses of Congress, and require a certain majority vote for passage, then the Amendment has to go before each state for ratification, and a certain number must ratify the Amendment before it becomes part of the Constitution.

 

[Timshel]

Well, the Federal government had no constitutional power to prohibit slavery before the 13th Amendment and the South had a legitimate argument then! Lincoln's emancipation freed CSA slaves, because he lacked the Constitutional authority to free US slaves, there was no 13th Amendment at this time.

Your concession will be accepted only after you fully submit in a reneactment of the way the southern states were forced to submit to their moral superiors from the northern states.

Congress had repeatedly failed to act on mounds of legislation regarding slavery, the SCOTUS continued to uphold constitutionality of slavery, and maintain the slaves were owned outright property of those who purchased them. Congress had even gone so far as to outright ban slave trading, we didn't have boats streaming in from Africa anymore, that had gone away. Lincoln and certain members of Congress, lobbied for and received, money to purchase land to repatriate the soon-to-be freed slaves to. There is a deep and storied history regarding all of this, and it's important we have discussions centered on it, rather than some ignorant bigoted myth.

Again, you're a fucking tard that denied Florida was a member of the CSA. I don't need any lessons from an ignorant and dishonest piece of shit like you.

Congress was stopped by the southern states, controlled by the privileged southern landowners, from acting. But their power was waning and so they pitched a fit, seceded and went to war to maintain their heritage and tradition of tyranny.

No... Amendments aren't passed AT ALL by the Federal government. Amendments have to be considered by both houses of Congress, and require a certain majority vote for passage, then the Amendment has to go before each state for ratification, and a certain number must ratify the Amendment before it becomes part of the Constitution.

I see you are very eager to admit I was right.

Now the left one.

 

[apple0154]

You must not pay attention, huh? I’ve already posted that several times. Here, just for you,

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” (Amendment 10, United States Constitution)



That’s what I love about lefties, they have no concept of what a “Constitutional Republic” actually is. They think America is supposed to be governed by “Mob Rule” of the majority vote. Lefties are sooooo freggin stupid they can’t explain why politicians and judges don’t take an oath of office that goes something like this,

“I do solemnly swear to preserve, protect and defend whatever the fucking majority of the people want and to hell with the Constitution.”

Of course the actual oath of office in the United States is,

“I do solemnly swear to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of these United States.”



It is totally UN-reasonable to submit that the “preamble” is the rule of law for the land and the masses thereof. The preamble simply is verse that verifies the reasoning of the “Constitution.” It is totally reasonable to proclaim that the Constitution is the foundation for the rule of all law of the land and the masses thereof.

So, a direct question. Do you believe the SCOTUS ruling on ObamaCare was unconstitutional?

 

[apple0154]

It surely is a pathetic argument that concludes that a 16 trillion $ national debt and rising, and undeclared, unconstitutional wars, the Patriot Act, the violent pathetic failed Drug War, the Military Industrial Complex and unauthorized unconstitutional federal socialist programs out the ying-yang bankrupting the nation and the federal extortion of the income tax is what our founding fathers thought was “GOOD FOR THE NATION.” Because the Constitution doesn’t matter and should be ignored. Now that’s funny, (and pathetic), I don’t care who ya are!!!!!

It's the Military Industrial Complex along with the bankers that's bankrupting the country.

 

[apple0154]

It's funny, you keep giving me examples of how government wastes our tax money, but it's somehow an argument for why they need to take more of it to help the needy. Sure, the inefficiency of government squanders and wastes the vast majority of what we give them, but that's all the more reason we need to give them MORE! That's your argument, right?

Better supervision of the government is needed. That's all. It's people who vote for the government. Look at voter turn-out. If people are too lazy to vote do you think they're going to volunteer or give money to help the poor?

 

[apple0154]

Your "Harvard study" was debunked and you backed off, just long enough to hope everyone forgot about how badly you were pwnd.

Debunked? By whom?

It's just common sense if someone does not have medical insurance they can not or will not get medical attention.

 

[Robo]

So, a direct question. Do you believe the SCOTUS ruling on ObamaCare was unconstitutional?

No! It is the constitutional duty of the Supreme Court to make all rulings in law that come before them. That much was “Constitutional,” The ruling itself was “CRIMINAL.” It was and is a biased ideological political criminal act. There’s no way Obamacare is “CONSTITUTIONAL!” There’s no authority in the Constitution for the federal government to operate any kind of socialist healthcare program nor mandate that citizens buy anything.

 

[evince]

hey idiot,

you dont get to decide that for the rest of us.

The vast majority of Americans say YOU are reading the constitution wrong

 

[Robo]

It's the Military Industrial Complex along with the bankers that's bankrupting the country.

The truth is, the Military Industrial Complex is only part of the problem. Crony Capitalism between Democrats and Wall Street and between Republicans and Wall Street and the Federal Government Socialist entitlement programs are the collective gangsters of national bankruptcy. All of that has come about because duopoly politicians ignore their oath of office and ignore and violate our Constitution. The federal government is a humongous unconstitutional malignancy, accepting bribery from Wall Street and other Special Interest and returning the bribery with legislative bribery and bribing the vote with socialist programs. Corruption is our system of government!!!

 

[evince]

Bla bla bla and you will give shit to any attempt to riegn in wall street and the banks as too much regulation

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Your concession will be accepted only after you fully submit in a reneactment of the way the southern states were forced to submit to their moral superiors from the northern states.

MY concession? I conceded for YOU! It was clearly stated (by YOU) that the Federal government could not constitutionally end slavery, therefore, the CSA had a legitimate complaint. It wasn't the South's fault the Federal government wanted to do something it wasn't constitutionally permitted to do, and it wasn't the South's fault slavery was constitutional.

Moral superiority? You mean to say that you think it was morally superior to ship slaves off to die in some piece of shit place we made to send them to? That was Lincoln's plan, that's what YOUR side wanted to do! Even AFTER the Civil War, your "morally superior" turd heads determined that a black man was 3/5ths of a person! It took another century to correct the injustices of your "morally superior" heroes.

Again, you're a fucking tard that denied Florida was a member of the CSA. I don't need any lessons from an ignorant and dishonest piece of shit like you.

This is the second time you've raised this strawman, which I don't think I ever said. At the time of the Civil War, Florida was barely even a state, and very few American settlers were in Florida. I don't know, maybe someone else tried to point this small detail out to your stupid ass, and you misinterpreted it, like you do just about everything, because you're such a fucking retard?

Congress was stopped by the southern states, controlled by the privileged southern landowners, from acting. But their power was waning and so they pitched a fit, seceded and went to war to maintain their heritage and tradition of tyranny.

Congress was stopped? What happened to "Congress had no constitutional authority?" Forget who had power, you can't do what is unconstitutional, regardless of how much power you have. This is yet another MYTH you want to prop up, so that you can somehow avoid culpability for what YOUR NATION did! You see, in your BIGOTED mind, you want to lay it all off on the South, and absolve yourself from any responsibility whatsoever, but HISTORY actually shows what a buffoon you are.

Yep... The South DID want to remain in possession of their legitimate constitutionally-supported and upheld property. The North had absolutely NO Constitutional right to seize what their own courts had determined was legitimate property. This was not the finding of the CSA, it was the finding of the SCOTUS, The Congress, and every president up to Lincoln.

The ONLY case you've made here, is for ignorant asshole northern moral bigotry.

 

[evince]

and Dixie defends slavery.

do you have any idea what a fucking piece of shit you are Dicksee

 

[evince]

MY concession? I conceded for YOU! It was clearly stated (by YOU) that the Federal government could not constitutionally end slavery, therefore, the CSA had a legitimate complaint. It wasn't the South's fault the Federal government wanted to do something it wasn't constitutionally permitted to do, and it wasn't the South's fault slavery was constitutional.

Moral superiority? You mean to say that you think it was morally superior to ship slaves off to die in some piece of shit place we made to send them to? That was Lincoln's plan, that's what YOUR side wanted to do! Even AFTER the Civil War, your "morally superior" turd heads determined that a black man was 3/5ths of a person! It took another century to correct the injustices of your "morally superior" heroes.



This is the second time you've raised this strawman, which I don't think I ever said. At the time of the Civil War, Florida was barely even a state, and very few American settlers were in Florida. I don't know, maybe someone else tried to point this small detail out to your stupid ass, and you misinterpreted it, like you do just about everything, because you're such a fucking retard?



Congress was stopped? What happened to "Congress had no constitutional authority?" Forget who had power, you can't do what is unconstitutional, regardless of how much power you have. This is yet another MYTH you want to prop up, so that you can somehow avoid culpability for what YOUR NATION did! You see, in your BIGOTED mind, you want to lay it all off on the South, and absolve yourself from any responsibility whatsoever, but HISTORY actually shows what a buffoon you are.

Yep... The South DID want to remain in possession of their legitimate constitutionally-supported and upheld property. The North had absolutely NO Constitutional right to seize what their own courts had determined was legitimate property. This was not the finding of the CSA, it was the finding of the SCOTUS, The Congress, and every president up to Lincoln.

The ONLY case you've made here, is for ignorant asshole northern moral bigotry.

what a fucking retard

 

[evince]

Now you KNOW what is really in the minds of these people who fly the dixie flag

 

[Robo]

hey idiot,

you dont get to decide that for the rest of us.

The vast majority of Americans say YOU are reading the constitution wrong

That’s it? That’s your best and only argument? If you are part of the “vast majority” then you should at least make a rational argument to debunk how I read the Constitution, don’t you think? Oh! I bet I know! You’re just the “IDIOT” type that has no actual rational arguments, but you’re long on irrelevant statements that prove nothing except that you are the “IDIOT,” huh?

 

[Anti-Party]

Seriously, have you been checked for retardation? Who the hell suddenly bestowed the power on the Federal government to outlaw slavery, which they didn't have the 85 years before? The SCOTUS ruled numerous times on slavery, finding it WAS Constitutional, and finding that black slaves WERE property. That is a fact of history, and the states had nothing to do with how the SCOTUS ruled or what the Federal government did. The states DID have to ratify the 13th and 14th Amendments to the Constitution, which ended slavery. It wasn't done by special power given to the Federal government, against the will of the states.



This is funny. Did you actually just present an argument for MORE taxes to support the park that no one wants, because without MORE taxes, the people who never wanted the park will be sued over the park they never wanted? In MY scenario, there IS NO PARK! The money was used to help a kid in a cancer ward, or buy a neighbor kid a new pair of shoes.... there can't be any lawsuit, because there is no park!

Oh my, another one that can't read...

No one wants to HELP with the park. Since it's one of the few parks not ran on tax money it takes volunteers like me and fund-raisers to keep it alive.

EVERYONE in town is complaining about nails sticking out of the wood, splinters, no mulch, rust, etc. EVERYONE wants a better park but those exact same Conservatives never show up when we have painting or money raising projects.

It's a reflection of America today. Everyone wants to live in this great nation but no one wants to pay for it. It's that Bush mindset of, "It's ok to spend on Katrina, 9-11, war with Iraq, war with Iran, no child left behind, free phones (currently known as the Obama phone heh), AmericasArmy VIDEO GAME, 77 vacations for the President, the council of anti-Iran government, the auto bailout, the bank bailout etc etc, THEN cutting taxes and saying "I'm Conservative because I make you pay less taxes" At least until a responsible president comes along and makes everyone mad for paying off the debt that was already there.