The Clinton-Obama Dust up

[blackascoal]

What do you think is happening between Clinton and Obama? You know that I am an Edwards supporter, but even if I wasn’t, and I supported Hillary, I would still want to hear what you have to say about this. I’d like to hear where you think the Clintons brought race into this. I don’t see it in the Reagan brushup or the Iraqi war attacks, so maybe it is under the wire and I have missed it. I admit I haven’t been paying close attention. I am already firmly settled on Edwards, and I just grimace every time I see a headline about Obama/Clinton because I don’t want to watch this split.

Let's start with the painful truth .. Edwards is not going to be the nominee. He may come in 3rd in South Carolina, a state he had to win. I like Edwards better than I've liked a democratic presidential candidate since Bobby Kennedy, whom Edwards favors in more ways than one. But like Bobby, he's not going to be the nominee .. for many of the same reasons.

What we're left with is Clinton and Obama, both better than any republican, and both with similar politics .. however, Clinton is too close to war and her arrogance in refusing to acknowledge the fraud of war is telling. She is too close to the same corporatism that has replaced democracy in America. It's the very same corporatism that was behind both the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq .. and which pushes for war with Iran. The puppetmasters behind the curtain are corporate CEO's and those who have put the interests of Israel in front of the interests of America. The Clintons, both of them, are too close to the puppetmasters. If we examine the consequences of some of what Bill Clinton did and did not do, following the money will lead you to corporations. Keep in mind that Bill wasn't against the war either. Carter has been far more on point than Bill.

In your analysis of the candidates keep in mind who is behind the curtain.

Do I believe the Clintons injected race into the arguments .. yes, I do .. and I've lost a lot of respect for Bill Clinton for getting into it. They should have run with the quickness away from any negative discussion of race. Bill's "fairy tale" comment was ill-advised .. make that stupid. I've watched him a lot and I've never seen him as uncomfortable around blacks as he was at Ebenezer Church on King Day. Atlanta mayor Shirley Franklin opened her comments with "This is a beautiful and glorious day and we stand on the cusp of history .. which is not a fantasy and not a fairy-tale." The audience cheered that comment, and Bill who was right behind her could only clap politely.

They've opened a door that can not benefit either of them. Blacks were Bill's most loyal constituency throughout his presidency, even through the bj and all the impeachment crap. He could not have won either time without overwhelming black support. Now, questions are being asked about his loyalty to blacks .. the same questions that people like me was asking all along.

Obama's Reagan comment also helped him win over independents and even some republicans. He was right about the specter of Reagan, even though Reagan himself was a talking dummy with good hair. The specter of Reagan was indeed transformative and empowered Republicans in a lot of ways .. which is why they call him God by which all republicans must be measured.

Hillary's attempt to suggest that Obama loved Reagan isn't going to work with those who've paid attention.

The biggest misstep the Clinton's have made in this race issue is that they believed their power within the black community was so strong that they could challenge Obama for "blackness" .. and their perspective of the Civil Rights era was the same perspective that blacks have. It isn't.

Now, people like John Lewis and Andrew Young, who have come out in support of Clinton, are catching a lot of flak from African-Americans all over the country. It was ill-advised for Clinton to drag out Bob Johnson to attack Obama who questioned what Obama was doing in the hood. Bob Johnson, who rode sex, drugs, gangs, the glorification of pimpism, and the degradation of women to the bank with BET. Why is Clinton close to such a man in the first place?

Now, many have come to the same realization that people like me have been saying for years .. its' time to say thank you and bye-bye to civil rights "leaders"/politicians and recognize that it's time to turn the keys over to our youth.

This is not the same America that was of my generation .. which brings me to what I want to say most to you my sister. I read your comments that you don't believe America is ready for a woman or black president .. but YES, we are. Americans have finally recognized the failure of right-wing thought .. the failure of racism, sexism, and the lack of intelligence in our course. You stand on the cusp of history, but you cannot ever allow the false images of the extreme to keep you from joining that history.

This land is ours, but rights are not determined by what is just or fair .. rights are determined by what you can demand and if you cannot demand them, then they are not your rights.

 

[blackascoal]

It's an established fact, that Bradley fed into the narrative of the "dishonest" Gore. And I'm sure Gore's hands weren't clean either. He got hardball on bradley.

The GOP was going to smear Gore no matter what. The point is, my recollection is that the mainstream press narrative about Gore being a serial liar, started mostly within the Democratic primary, as a result of the barbs between bradley and gore. And the GOP picked up that ball and ran with it in the general election....and, from what I can recall, Gore could never effectively rebut those accusation of being a serial liar.

So, I'm saying that hardball politics is pretty normal in primaries. And if Obama is the nominee, crying or whining about unfair attacks isn't going to save him. He needs to fight back as dirty as hell, if the GOP smear machine goes after him. Which it will.

I agree with you, but as I've said earlier, Obama has effectively fought back and from my perspective, has won the battle of words with Clinton.

The republican nominee will have his hands full in debate with the intelligence and quick wit of Obama.

They fear Obama more than they fear Clinton.

 

[Onceler]

"They fear Obama more than they fear Clinton."

That is indisputable. The ONLY thing that saves the GOP - this year and in the short-term future, at the very least - is a Hillary candidacy. It is the only thing that will rally their base.

Sure, they will shred Obama, but it won't be the same. I'd wager than many Republicans will end up voting for Obama if McCain or Romney gets nominated.

 

[Cancel7]

Let's start with the painful truth .. Edwards is not going to be the nominee. He may come in 3rd in South Carolina, a state he had to win. I like Edwards better than I've liked a democratic presidential candidate since Bobby Kennedy, whom Edwards favors in more ways than one. But like Bobby, he's not going to be the nominee .. for many of the same reasons.

What we're left with is Clinton and Obama, both better than any republican, and both with similar politics .. however, Clinton is too close to war and her arrogance in refusing to acknowledge the fraud of war is telling. She is too close to the same corporatism that has replaced democracy in America. It's the very same corporatism that was behind both the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq .. and which pushes for war with Iran. The puppetmasters behind the curtain are corporate CEO's and those who have put the interests of Israel in front of the interests of America. The Clintons, both of them, are too close to the puppetmasters. If we examine the consequences of some of what Bill Clinton did and did not do, following the money will lead you to corporations. Keep in mind that Bill wasn't against the war either. Carter has been far more on point than Bill.

In your analysis of the candidates keep in mind who is behind the curtain.

Do I believe the Clintons injected race into the arguments .. yes, I do .. and I've lost a lot of respect for Bill Clinton for getting into it. They should have run with the quickness away from any negative discussion of race. Bill's "fairy tale" comment was ill-advised .. make that stupid. I've watched him a lot and I've never seen him as uncomfortable around blacks as he was at Ebenezer Church on King Day. Atlanta mayor Shirley Franklin opened her comments with "This is a beautiful and glorious day and we stand on the cusp of history .. which is not a fantasy and not a fairy-tale." The audience cheered that comment, and Bill who was right behind her could only clap politely.

They've opened a door that can not benefit either of them. Blacks were Bill's most loyal constituency throughout his presidency, even through the bj and all the impeachment crap. He could not have won either time without overwhelming black support. Now, questions are being asked about his loyalty to blacks .. the same questions that people like me was asking all along.

Obama's Reagan comment also helped him win over independents and even some republicans. He was right about the specter of Reagan, even though Reagan himself was a talking dummy with good hair. The specter of Reagan was indeed transformative and empowered Republicans in a lot of ways .. which is why they call him God by which all republicans must be measured.

Hillary's attempt to suggest that Obama loved Reagan isn't going to work with those who've paid attention.

The biggest misstep the Clinton's have made in this race issue is that they believed their power within the black community was so strong that they could challenge Obama for "blackness" .. and their perspective of the Civil Rights era was the same perspective that blacks have. It isn't.

Now, people like John Lewis and Andrew Young, who have come out in support of Clinton, are catching a lot of flak from African-Americans all over the country. It was ill-advised for Clinton to drag out Bob Johnson to attack Obama who questioned what Obama was doing in the hood. Bob Johnson, who rode sex, drugs, gangs, the glorification of pimpism, and the degradation of women to the bank with BET. Why is Clinton close to such a man in the first place?

Now, many have come to the same realization that people like me have been saying for years .. its' time to say thank you and bye-bye to civil rights "leaders"/politicians and recognize that it's time to turn the keys over to our youth.

This is not the same America that was of my generation .. which brings me to what I want to say most to you my sister. I read your comments that you don't believe America is ready for a woman or black president .. but YES, we are. Americans have finally recognized the failure of right-wing thought .. the failure of racism, sexism, and the lack of intelligence in our course. You stand on the cusp of history, but you cannot ever allow the false images of the extreme to keep you from joining that history.

This land is ours, but rights are not determined by what is just or fair .. rights are determined by what you can demand and if you cannot demand them, then they are not your rights.

Bac if you turn out to be right, I will be very happy of it, believe me.

As for Edwards, I know he’s not going to be the nominee, but I want to give him my vote in the primary. I will support the Democratic nominee whomever it is, whether that makes me a hack or not, I don’t know, but I do know that I have been struck over and over by one clear fact while watching the various debates: The Democratic candidates have something that the Republican candidates do not; their sanity. To a person, they are sane. I listen to that group on the other side, and I can’t believe what I am hearing, it is pure insanity. One is crazier than the next.

I agree about Johnson, I just did not get the racism in anything Bill or Hillary had said. But if they were behind the things he said, that was low. I did not know his background though, and that is interesting.

 

[blackascoal]

Bac if you turn out to be right, I will be very happy of it, believe me.

As for Edwards, I know he’s not going to be the nominee, but I want to give him my vote in the primary. I will support the Democratic nominee whomever it is, whether that makes me a hack or not, I don’t know, but I do know that I have been struck over and over by one clear fact while watching the various debates: The Democratic candidates have something that the Republican candidates do not; their sanity. To a person, they are sane. I listen to that group on the other side, and I can’t believe what I am hearing, it is pure insanity. One is crazier than the next.

I agree about Johnson, I just did not get the racism in anything Bill or Hillary had said. But if they were behind the things he said, that was low. I did not know his background though, and that is interesting.

You're right .. the other side is insane. The good news is that most Americans have figured that out and the republicans only hope now is in Hillary and their fight with the Clinton machine.

As a parent, I've never allowed my daughter to watch BET, and now that she's 16, she doesn't want to and think it stupid and degrading to black people, especially women. It's actually gotten a bit tamer since Viacom bought it from Johnson for mega-billions of dollars, but its still degrading.

When a womans group from Spelman openly challenged Johnson to cut the negative stereotypical images of "Citas World", and "tits and ass" all day from his station and to refrain from allowing the "N" word on his station, he basically gave them the finger .. the same finger he gave to anyone else, like children advocacy groups who were concerned about the negative impact of available porn all day to unsupervised children.

Bob Johnson is a piece of shit and may he burn in Hell.

This is who Hillary dragged from under a rock to defend her amongst blacks.

 

[Cancel7]

"They fear Obama more than they fear Clinton."

That is indisputable. The ONLY thing that saves the GOP - this year and in the short-term future, at the very least - is a Hillary candidacy. It is the only thing that will rally their base.

Sure, they will shred Obama, but it won't be the same. I'd wager than many Republicans will end up voting for Obama if McCain or Romney gets nominated.

Onceler, I wish I had your optimism. Maybe I am totally off base, I hope I am. I have been thinking lately, that maybe I am too surrounded by Italian males. Have you ever seen Jungle Fever or Do the Right Thing?

That’s my brothers and also my sister-in-laws family. My sister-in-law is 100% Italian her mother is from what they call “the other side”. Massapequa Italians, you know that is Pete King territory? Might as well as be Howard Beach or Bed Sty.

I have become so alienated from them that it’s painful. I grew up around that all my life. I once had a black boyfriend, and then when I met my ex-fiance, I threw out all of the pictures of us, because I had been raised around Italian men and I knew what would happen, and that is exactly what did happen. I am ashamed that I was once the kind of girl who would actually throw out those pictures, but happy that I’m not her any longer. I would never end up again with someone who would care one way or the other, but that’s my history. That’s what I know.

And I will tell you right now one of the reasons I left on Christmas crying is because a group of them said that if Obama became President “they” would get out of control. That’s what I hear. And so if I am skeptical and I scoff at all of these white guys on here jumping up and down to say they’re not racist and they can’t wait to vote for Obama, that’s why. And maybe I am totally wrong, and once you get out of Massapequa nobody is like that. I will jump up and down if that turns out to be the case, because in my family, I have always been the stupid one, and the crazy one who had no common sense and no real life experience and why don’t I go stand in a bar in Harlem and see what happens to me. So, there you go. Pretty ugly huh?

 

[Cancel7]

You're right .. the other side is insane. The good news is that most Americans have figured that out and the republicans only hope now is in Hillary and their fight with the Clinton machine.

As a parent, I've never allowed my daughter to watch BET, and now that she's 16, she doesn't want to and think it stupid and degrading to black people, especially women. It's actually gotten a bit tamer since Viacom bought it from Johnson for mega-billions of dollars, but its still degrading.

When a womans group from Spelman openly challenged Johnson to cut the negative stereotypical images of "Citas World", and "tits and ass" all day from his station and to refrain from allowing the "N" word on his station, he basically gave them the finger .. the same finger he gave to anyone else, like children advocacy groups who were concerned about the negative impact of available porn all day to unsupervised children.

Bob Johnson is a piece of shit and may he burn in Hell.

This is who Hillary dragged from under a rock to defend her amongst blacks.

I’m glad to know about this, I really had no idea.

 

[blackascoal]

Onceler, I wish I had your optimism. Maybe I am totally off base, I hope I am. I have been thinking lately, that maybe I am too surrounded by Italian males. Have you ever seen Jungle Fever or Do the Right Thing?

That’s my brothers and also my sister-in-laws family. My sister-in-law is 100% Italian her mother is from what they call “the other side”. Massapequa Italians, you know that is Pete King territory? Might as well as be Howard Beach or Bed Sty.

I have become so alienated from them that it’s painful. I grew up around that all my life. I once had a black boyfriend, and then when I met my ex-fiance, I threw out all of the pictures of us, because I had been raised around Italian men and I knew what would happen, and that is exactly what did happen. I am ashamed that I was once the kind of girl who would actually throw out those pictures, but happy that I’m not her any longer. I would never end up again with someone who would care one way or the other, but that’s my history. That’s what I know.

And I will tell you right now one of the reasons I left on Christmas crying is because a group of them said that if Obama became President “they” would get out of control. That’s what I hear. And so if I am skeptical and I scoff at all of these white guys on here jumping up and down to say they’re not racist and they can’t wait to vote for Obama, that’s why. And maybe I am totally wrong, and once you get out of Massapequa nobody is like that. I will jump up and down if that turns out to be the case, because in my family, I have always been the stupid one, and the crazy one who had no common sense and no real life experience and why don’t I go stand in a bar in Harlem and see what happens to me. So, there you go. Pretty ugly huh?

It's life in America sister.

The good news is that it ain't the same America as when comments like that are accepted in the mainstream. Now, they pretty much have to keep that bullshit to themselves.

If I haven't already said .. the best thing about the Michael "Kramer" Richards incident in LA when he went off screaming "Nigxxr, Nigxxr, Nigxxr" in a comedy club was that it was white people who booed his ass off the stage. It was white people who screamed at his dumb ass as he walked off stage into oblivion taking his career with him. I bet some of those who screamed at him were republicans.

Is race still a huge problem in America .. absolutely .. but it ain't the same problems and this ain't the same America.

George Bush has been the greatest influence on sanity the world may ever know.

The next time you're at a function with your knucklehead kin .. have a smile on your face and they talk stupid.

 

[blackascoal]

I’m glad to know about this, I really had no idea.

Always here to help a sister out.

 

[Cancel7]

It's life in America sister.

The good news is that it ain't the same America as when comments like that are accepted in the mainstream. Now, they pretty much have to keep that bullshit to themselves.

If I haven't already said .. the best thing about the Michael "Kramer" Richards incident in LA when he went off screaming "Nigxxr, Nigxxr, Nigxxr" in a comedy club was that it was white people who booed his ass off the stage. It was white people who screamed at his dumb ass as he walked off stage into oblivion taking his career with him. I bet some of those who screamed at him were republicans.

Is race still a huge problem in America .. absolutely .. but it ain't the same problems and this ain't the same America.

George Bush has been the greatest influence on sanity the world may ever know.

The next time you're at a function with your knucklehead kin .. have a smile on your face and they talk stupid.

Ok, the next time, I will think about what you said and then that will make me smile through it. Though, they’re few and far between these days. I’m in no rush for the next one.

It does make me smile really wide when I think about their impotent anger if Obama is elected.

 

[blackascoal]

Ok, the next time, I will think about what you said and then that will make me smile through it. Though, they’re few and far between these days. I’m in no rush for the next one.

It does make me smile really wide when I think about their impotent anger if Obama is elected.

That should be fun.

You're the smarter one .. enjoy their ignorance. It's a guilty pleasure.

 

[Cypress]

It's life in America sister.

The good news is that it ain't the same America as when comments like that are accepted in the mainstream. Now, they pretty much have to keep that bullshit to themselves.

If I haven't already said .. the best thing about the Michael "Kramer" Richards incident in LA when he went off screaming "Nigxxr, Nigxxr, Nigxxr" in a comedy club was that it was white people who booed his ass off the stage. It was white people who screamed at his dumb ass as he walked off stage into oblivion taking his career with him. I bet some of those who screamed at him were republicans.

Is race still a huge problem in America .. absolutely .. but it ain't the same problems and this ain't the same America.

George Bush has been the greatest influence on sanity the world may ever know.

The next time you're at a function with your knucklehead kin .. have a smile on your face and they talk stupid.

Its not the skin tone that freaks me out. I hate to say this, but obama fits the mold of the Colin Powell-style african american candidate; i.e., non-threatening to whites, in a way Jesse Jackson would be. I'm not saying that to be inflammatory, I'm stating it as a matter of simple fact. Although his skin color will certainly play a role for the neaderthal subset of the population.

I think the slurs on Obama will come in under the radar, in the form of him being a muslim, who went to madrasses, snorted coke as a youth, allegedly "was a drug dealer", and belongs to a "racist" and "black nationalist" church.

 

[Onceler]

Onceler, I wish I had your optimism. Maybe I am totally off base, I hope I am. I have been thinking lately, that maybe I am too surrounded by Italian males. Have you ever seen Jungle Fever or Do the Right Thing?

That’s my brothers and also my sister-in-laws family. My sister-in-law is 100% Italian her mother is from what they call “the other side”. Massapequa Italians, you know that is Pete King territory? Might as well as be Howard Beach or Bed Sty.

I have become so alienated from them that it’s painful. I grew up around that all my life. I once had a black boyfriend, and then when I met my ex-fiance, I threw out all of the pictures of us, because I had been raised around Italian men and I knew what would happen, and that is exactly what did happen. I am ashamed that I was once the kind of girl who would actually throw out those pictures, but happy that I’m not her any longer. I would never end up again with someone who would care one way or the other, but that’s my history. That’s what I know.

And I will tell you right now one of the reasons I left on Christmas crying is because a group of them said that if Obama became President “they” would get out of control. That’s what I hear. And so if I am skeptical and I scoff at all of these white guys on here jumping up and down to say they’re not racist and they can’t wait to vote for Obama, that’s why. And maybe I am totally wrong, and once you get out of Massapequa nobody is like that. I will jump up and down if that turns out to be the case, because in my family, I have always been the stupid one, and the crazy one who had no common sense and no real life experience and why don’t I go stand in a bar in Harlem and see what happens to me. So, there you go. Pretty ugly huh?

That's a real bummer, Darla - I'm sorry to hear it. I know this exists, though, and I think racism is as ingrained in America as sexism. Sometimes it's harder to spot, since it's not as PC as sexism seems to be. Still, I remember dating a black girl, and some of the comments that came from people I knew - who I wouldn't have even suspected racism from previously - were shocking.

It's definitely a hurdle, but Iowa showed me something, as did his strong showing in NH, even though he lost there. Those are some seriously white states. Also, I think Obama will offset a lot of the lost votes by energizing people who don't normally vote in high #'s (youth vote comes to mind).

I really don't know, though; I could be wrong on virtually everything; maybe he would get crushed, simply for racial reasons. That would be a shame; at this point, I'd rather see him at least get the opportunity.

 

[Cancel7]

That's a real bummer, Darla - I'm sorry to hear it. I know this exists, though, and I think racism is as ingrained in America as sexism. Sometimes it's harder to spot, since it's not as PC as sexism seems to be. Still, I remember dating a black girl, and some of the comments that came from people I knew - who I wouldn't have even suspected racism from previously - were shocking.

It's definitely a hurdle, but Iowa showed me something, as did his strong showing in NH, even though he lost there. Those are some seriously white states. Also, I think Obama will offset a lot of the lost votes by energizing people who don't normally vote in high #'s (youth vote comes to mind).

I really don't know, though; I could be wrong on virtually everything; maybe he would get crushed, simply for racial reasons. That would be a shame; at this point, I'd rather see him at least get the opportunity.

Yeah exactly, even from people you wouldn’t have known about. That’s when you find out.
I’m glad I got this out though, I have almost posted it so many times, but then held back because it’s so ugly and wow, great family you know? (my mom is great and not like this at all though) But I’m glad I got it out. It feels better to do that somehow.

 

[Onceler]

Yeah exactly, even from people you wouldn’t have known about. That’s when you find out.
I’m glad I got this out though, I have almost posted it so many times, but then held back because it’s so ugly and wow, great family you know? (my mom is great and not like this at all though) But I’m glad I got it out. It feels better to do that somehow.

That's what we're here for! It always feels good to get stuff out, even if it's on an anonymous internet message board.

Remember, you don't get to choose the family you're born into. Lord knows I've got my own issues, though they are more anti-semites than anti-black, though I never had a chance to really test them on that by marrying the black girl I was dating. Actually, when I think about it, I'm sure they're racists, too, but I don't talk to them much anymore, anyway...

 

[Cancel7]

That's what we're here for! It always feels good to get stuff out, even if it's on an anonymous internet message board.

Remember, you don't get to choose the family you're born into. Lord knows I've got my own issues, though they are more anti-semites than anti-black, though I never had a chance to really test them on that by marrying the black girl I was dating. Actually, when I think about it, I'm sure they're racists, too, but I don't talk to them much anymore, anyway...

That’s really something that we have similar situations.

This has been really a great thread. I kind of feel like you me and bac should all hug now. If we were at a party and I had a couple of drinks that’s what I’d be doing, hugging you both and you’d be like, what a drunken dope.

 

[leaningright]

So after the "dust up" who do my democratic friends see as the nomination? I will vote for any non-Clinton, non-Obama candidate that is on the ticket on Super Tuesday but it won't matter. Who do you think will get the nod?

Point being, the best candidate to beat the republicans (which is what I know you guys want to do) in November is Obama. It seems that the democratic "establishment" doesn't like him as well as they do Hillary, which is puzzeling to me. Every recent poll that I have seen has him whipping the republican candidate handily. I can't believe they are going to nominate Hillary and make a race out of it in November.

 

[Cypress]

So after the "dust up" who do my democratic friends see as the nomination? I will vote for any non-Clinton, non-Obama candidate that is on the ticket on Super Tuesday but it won't matter. Who do you think will get the nod?

Point being, the best candidate to beat the republicans (which is what I know you guys want to do) in November is Obama. It seems that the democratic "establishment" doesn't like him as well as they do Hillary, which is puzzeling to me. Every recent poll that I have seen has him whipping the republican candidate handily. I can't believe they are going to nominate Hillary and make a race out of it in November.

I wouldn't pay much attention to current polls, or current head to head matchups.

And I certainly wouldn't pay attention to anyone's predictions here. We've all been horribly wrong. Noboby thought McCain would climb out of the grave. Everyone thought Gulliani was a powerhouse front runner - look where he is now, virtually a total has-been, especially if he loses florida.