The final nail in the supply side coffin

Being fiscally conservative means you DO NOT spend more than you make on a consistent basis. While there are times when it is ok to do so, you don't do it for 50 consecutive years. The last true fiscal conservative was Ike. Not Reagan. Reagan allowed Congress to continue their reckless spending habits. It is BOTH parties that have done so. But do take a look at WHO controlled the purse strings during the WORST times. Dems love pointing to Reagan as a big spender.... yet ALWAYS neglect to mention that it was Tip's House that HAD to pass any and all budgets. You look at 2008-2010 and we see a DEM led Congress yet again.
 
Bfgrn said:
You mean I don't fit YOUR definition of fiscal conservative? The dogma driven religion of Reaganomics, free market worship and hands off invisible hand of the market that has failed miserably?

Freak
Conservatives are not about 'big business' or 'small business', we are about a FREE market. Which means whomever survives is fine. Because normally it will be the fittest/strongest/most efficient companies that survive.

THAT is not 'conservatism'...that is Reagan dogma. Reagan and his economic advisors were not conservatives, they were radicals who trashed everything that generations had built, and replaced it with ideology.

So, what is conservatism? In my opinion, it is respect for the past and the wisdom of our ancestors. Their lives were built on their ancestors and so it goes, from one generation to the next. You ultimately respect the lives and toil of our ancestors not by paying lip service or using empty rhetoric like 'family values'. You do it by embracing their lessons learned; respecting the policies, regulations and programs they crafted that increased the benefits and lessened the losses in our communities and our society we reap the benefits of.

How did our ancestors craft them, were they based on some 'ideology'? I believe they were based on common sense, common decency, experience, trial and error, community activism, elections and community involvement.

So...In a very real way I AM truly a conservative.

Are ANY of the people that now call themselves conservatives today looking for common sense, common decency solutions to benefit their families and their community, or are they ideologues, that want to dismantle any shred of COMMunity and replace it with SELF interest?

That is not 'conservatism', that is narcissism.
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A fiscal conservative does not waste money on bullshit. A fiscal conservative does not spend more than they take in. A fiscal conservative is not one who spends like a drunken sailor and then seeks ways to cover the bills when they come due.
 
Bfgrn said:
So, what is conservatism? In my opinion, it is respect for the past and the wisdom of our ancestors……..You do it by embracing their lessons learned………..How did our ancestors craft them, were they based on some 'ideology'? I believe they were based on common sense, common decency, experience, trial and error, community activism, elections and community involvement.
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Right on!

I don’t know whether it’s due to ignorance of the past or simply selfishness but when I hear people talk about changing (privatizing) things like Social Security and eliminating other government programs and lowering taxes on the wealthy there was a time when all those things were in effect.

Before government Social Security people were responsible for their own retirement “plans” and people died. They had no money to survive. They were either abandoned by family or didn’t have family.

Welfare, SS, Medicare/Medicaid…..some people act as if those government programs were always in place and they suggest a “new” approach but as Obama said at the beginning of his term those new Republican ideas were nothing more than old, tired, worn out ideas. Ideas that had been in effect for thousands of years.

Since the beginning of time “programs” were private and as civilization progressed a better way was found. Just like government medical every single country that implemented such a plan has maintained it at the insistence of it’s citizens and considering every study has shown a savings of at least 1/3 what more proof of “fiscal conservatism” is required. Savings whether compared to GDP or compared to actual dollars and cents spent per capita.

Either due to ignorance or a greedy, selfish attitude there is nothing fiscally Conservative about dismantling government programs or giving the rich tax breaks spouting the absurd argument it will benefit everyone.

As you accurately stated it was due to “common sense, common decency, experience, trial and error,” that resulted in our ancestors implementing such programs. If an individual were truly concerned about fiscal responsibility and their fellow citizen they would pick up a history book.

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Bfgrn said:
You mean I don't fit YOUR definition of fiscal conservative? The dogma driven religion of Reaganomics, free market worship and hands off invisible hand of the market that has failed miserably?

Freak
Conservatives are not about 'big business' or 'small business', we are about a FREE market. Which means whomever survives is fine. Because normally it will be the fittest/strongest/most efficient companies that survive.

THAT is not 'conservatism'...that is Reagan dogma. Reagan and his economic advisors were not conservatives, they were radicals who trashed everything that generations had built, and replaced it with ideology.

So, what is conservatism? In my opinion, it is respect for the past and the wisdom of our ancestors. Their lives were built on their ancestors and so it goes, from one generation to the next. You ultimately respect the lives and toil of our ancestors not by paying lip service or using empty rhetoric like 'family values'. You do it by embracing their lessons learned; respecting the policies, regulations and programs they crafted that increased the benefits and lessened the losses in our communities and our society we reap the benefits of.

How did our ancestors craft them, were they based on some 'ideology'? I believe they were based on common sense, common decency, experience, trial and error, community activism, elections and community involvement.

So...In a very real way I AM truly a conservative.

Are ANY of the people that now call themselves conservatives today looking for common sense, common decency solutions to benefit their families and their community, or are they ideologues, that want to dismantle any shred of COMMunity and replace it with SELF interest?

That is not 'conservatism', that is narcissism.
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WinterBorn said:
A fiscal conservative does not waste money on bullshit. A fiscal conservative does not spend more than they take in. A fiscal conservative is not one who spends like a drunken sailor and then seeks ways to cover the bills when they come due.
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List the 'bullshit'
 
Bfgrn said:
List the 'bullshit'
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$175 million to maintain an unused monkey house.
$1.8 million for a museum dedicated to old Las Vegas signs.
$615,000 to digitize a Grateful Dead collection.
$823,200 to study genitalia washing in South Africa.
$1.5 Million to spruce Up Apartments Before They Are Torn Down.


Bfgrn, do you really need examples? Our gov't is burning thru money at a record pace.
 
WinterBorn said:
$175 million to maintain an unused monkey house.
$1.8 million for a museum dedicated to old Las Vegas signs.
$615,000 to digitize a Grateful Dead collection.
$823,200 to study genitalia washing in South Africa.
$1.5 Million to spruce Up Apartments Before They Are Torn Down.


Bfgrn, do you really need examples? Our gov't is burning thru money at a record pace.
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Link(s)?

Maybe we can solve our economy by going after 'earmarks'... The GOP party of know-nothingisms candidate for president seemed to think so...

earmarks.jpg


How about something substantial like boarding up Fatherland Security?
 
I have no problem going after earmarks of both parties. You are trying to make this about one party being better than the other. I am about this nation no longer being able to afford either party wasting billions of dollars.
 
WinterBorn said:
I have no problem going after earmarks of both parties. You are trying to make this about one party being better than the other. I am about this nation no longer being able to afford either party wasting billions of dollars.
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So, you and president McCain would spend your time cleaning up ONE HALF OF ONE PERCENT... Do you 'conservatives' believe you will live forever, or is 'time' management not a conservative tenet?
 
Bfgrn said:
So, you and president McCain would spend your time cleaning up ONE HALF OF ONE PERCENT... Do you 'conservatives' believe you will live forever, or is 'time' management not a conservative tenet?
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WTF? Because I listed relatively minor amounts, it is not worth our time?

You call yourself a fiscal conservative, and yet you seem to have no issue with wasteful spending?


You keep wanting to link my desire for a fiscally responsible government with a specific party or political leaning. Why is that? Is it less of an issue if your favorite party wastes money?
 
WinterBorn said:
WTF? Because I listed relatively minor amounts, it is not worth our time?

You call yourself a fiscal conservative, and yet you seem to have no issue with wasteful spending?


You keep wanting to link my desire for a fiscally responsible government with a specific party or political leaning. Why is that? Is it less of an issue if your favorite party wastes money?
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Not ALL earmarks are wasteful, so you will waste TIME and money (time IS money btw) sorting out the good from the bad. You and McCain would have a bunch of TIME and money wasting bureaucrats chasing pennies.

Let's go after BIG, not small. How about boarding up Fatherland Security, hiring enough federal agents to investigate, arrest and prosecute doctors, hospitals, medical suppliers and corporations who defraud the taxpayers via Medicare and Medicaid fraud.

BTW, 'Obamacare' is doing that...

Health care fraud prevention and enforcement efforts recover record $4 billion; new Affordable Care Act tools will help fight fraud

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary Kathleen Sebelius and U.S. Associate Attorney General Thomas J. Perrelli today announced a new report showing that the government’s health care fraud prevention and enforcement efforts recovered more than $4 billion in taxpayer dollars in Fiscal Year (FY) 2010. This is the highest annual amount ever recovered from people who attempted to defraud seniors and taxpayers. In addition, HHS today announced new rules authorized by the Affordable Care Act that will help the department work proactively to prevent and fight fraud, waste and abuse in Medicare, Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP).
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Then let's really go after fraud in military and Pentagon contracts. Corporations with 'no bid' contracts like KBR, a branch of Halliburton, a company closely associated with Dick Cheney and favored heavily by the Republican Party for no-bid contracts with no oversight, that has so bungled the maintenance of one of our Iraq bases that 12 of our troops have been killed by electrocution

Federal Contractor Misconduct Database (FCMD)The government awards contracts to companies with histories of misconduct such as contract fraud and environmental, ethics, and labor violations. In the absence of a centralized federal database listing instances of misconduct, the Project On Government Oversight (POGO) is providing such data.

screenshot1.png
 
Bfgrn said:
Not ALL earmarks are wasteful, so you will waste TIME and money (time IS money btw) sorting out the good from the bad. You and McCain would have a bunch of TIME and money wasting bureaucrats chasing pennies.

Let's go after BIG, not small. How about boarding up Fatherland Security, hiring enough federal agents to investigate, arrest and prosecute doctors, hospitals, medical suppliers and corporations who defraud the taxpayers via Medicare and Medicaid fraud.

BTW, 'Obamacare' is doing that...

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) Secretary Kathleen Sebelius and U.S. Associate Attorney General Thomas J. Perrelli today announced a new report showing that the government’s health care fraud prevention and enforcement efforts recovered more than $4 billion in taxpayer dollars in Fiscal Year (FY) 2010. This is the highest annual amount ever recovered from people who attempted to defraud seniors and taxpayers. In addition, HHS today announced new rules authorized by the Affordable Care Act that will help the department work proactively to prevent and fight fraud, waste and abuse in Medicare, Medicaid and the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Then let's really go after fraud in military and Pentagon contracts. Corporations with 'no bid' contracts like KBR, a branch of Halliburton, a company closely associated with Dick Cheney and favored heavily by the Republican Party for no-bid contracts with no oversight, that has so bungled the maintenance of one of our Iraq bases that 12 of our troops have been killed by electrocution

Federal Contractor Misconduct Database (FCMD)The government awards contracts to companies with histories of misconduct such as contract fraud and environmental, ethics, and labor violations. In the absence of a centralized federal database listing instances of misconduct, the Project On Government Oversight (POGO) is providing such data.
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Yeah, lets not bother with the millions wasted. lol

We have been spending millions more every year than we take in. We have to stop wasting money. You can dance around talking about whether its one party or another and then shift it to "we need to go after the big waste" if you want. But the federal gov't does waste huge sums. We have got to get that under control.
 
I knew we were in the deepest pile of shit when the mini war in Georgia happened. Obama was on the boob tube in less than 24 hrs pledging 1 billion in funds. I'm like WTF who did he ask, I never met anyone from the country or could care less the ideology of either side.

Anybody who thinks we don't have a spending problem needs drugs more than I do.
 
WinterBorn said:
Yeah, lets not bother with the millions wasted. lol

We have been spending millions more every year than we take in. We have to stop wasting money. You can dance around talking about whether its one party or another and then shift it to "we need to go after the big waste" if you want. But the federal gov't does waste huge sums. We have got to get that under control.
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I am all for stopping government waste, but BIG waste trumps small. AND what we have is a REVENUE problem. We need to increase revenues as well as cut spending. BUT, Medicare, Social Security, and numerous other vital services are NOT NEGOTIABLE.
 
Bfgrn said:
I am all for stopping government waste, but BIG waste trumps small. AND what we have is a REVENUE problem. We need to increase revenues as well as cut spending. BUT, Medicare, Social Security, and numerous other vital services are NOT NEGOTIABLE.
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What would you define as "vital services"?

We have a problem spending more than we have a problem with revenue. Before the gov't starts demanding more from all of us, they need to show us they are not wasting it. The idea that they repeatedly come back for more and more, and yet show little or no responsibility with OUR money is ridiculous.
 
WinterBorn said:
What would you define as "vital services"?

We have a problem spending more than we have a problem with revenue. Before the gov't starts demanding more from all of us, they need to show us they are not wasting it. The idea that they repeatedly come back for more and more, and yet show little or no responsibility with OUR money is ridiculous.
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They haven't 'repeatedly come back for more and more' for MORE THAN A FUCKING DECADE.

NOW, would you like to have a reasonable debate, or are you going to continue to spew right wing propaganda?
 
WinterBorn said:
Before the gov't starts demanding more from all of us, they need to show us they are not wasting it.
Click to expand...

Health care fraud prevention and enforcement efforts recover record $4 billion; new Affordable Care Act tools will help fight fraud

Joint DOJ & HHS efforts result in largest sum ever recovered in single year; new rules under the Affordable Care Act will keep fraudulent providers and suppliers out of Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP and avoid payments of fraudulent claims.
 
Bfgrn said:
They haven't 'repeatedly come back for more and more' for MORE THAN A FUCKING DECADE.

NOW, would you like to have a reasonable debate, or are you going to continue to spew right wing propaganda?
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Oh fuck you, you insignificant twit. Are you claiming that there have been no increases in any federal taxes in more than a decade? Also, the gov't has claimed to need more money every year. Now whether they get it or not may differ from year to year, but they always clamor for more.

Oh, and between bouts of name-calling, how about defining "vital services" for us?
 
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