The Second American Revolution - We The People

Why is everyone so focussed on the idea of Saddam supplying chemical weapons to Al Queda? Since when is Al Queda the only terrorist organization over there? Most democrats agreed with Bush that the biggest threat of the ME is the advent of WMDs in the hands of terrorist groups. It was the ignorance of the media that kept harping on Al Queda. Saddam was known to provide support to international terrorists, most of whom were aimed at Israel. Considering Saddam had a history of using WMDs when he thought it to his advantage, it would not take a large leap of probability to imagine him eventually supplying his buddy terrorists (who did NOT include Al Queda, but DID include factions just as full of hatred for the U.S.) with a few tons of serin in binary liquid form.

That is what made Saddam and Iraq a significant threat. WHile it was a threat that could have - and should have - been handled with means other than a ground force invasion, it was a real threat, and is the reason the democrats were on board with doing something about it.

However, the claim that many of those who voted "yea" on the force authorization didn't know they were voting for a ground war is simplistically naive. They knew full well what they were voting for because the available alternate uses of force (missile and/or bombing campaigns, etc.) did not NEED any type of congressional approval. They knew that. Anyone who has a miniscule glimmering of knowledge about the federal government knows that. Bush could have bombed Bagdad to a smoking ruin of overlapping craters while congress sat around discussing oil prices. But instead Bush asked for authorization to use force. There is only ONE kind of force the president goes to congress for: the deployment of ground troops to engage in combat operations on foreign soil. Therefore, ANYONE who voted in favor of the measure, no matter how they "qualified" their vote with fuzzy rhetoric to please their constituency, knew full well what it was they were voting for, and knew full well it would be used.

Yes, a majority of democrats voted against the measure. But enough voted FOR it (including the last presidential candidate, AND more than one of the last democratic primary candidates) to make it a bi-partisan fuck up.
 
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I've never supported the war in Iraq. IMO, it is seriously disingenuous to pretend that I have. We just didn't support it for different reasons, and I can recognize victory when it finally is reached.

And no, I don't. They got F-14s because we allowed it. We bartered and traded between them, hoping for a "balance" that would maintain a false stability in the region. We did it for decades.

I never meant to imply that you supported the war...only that we disagreed on the viability of the Iraq-AQ alliance.
 
Victory? Damo are you serious, you think we have victory in Iraq?

In what sense is it victory and how do you know it has been reached?
By the measure that was put on it before and Obama gives it today. A strong and stable ally, blah, blah...

The reality is, Bush finally put enough people in there to do what we should have done long before, and that we didn't was a heinous disregard of the security of people we "took" responsibility for.

Bush did many things wrong in Iraq, starting with going to war to begin with, continuing with too few troops, allowing the national identity of Iraq to be sacked, firing the standing army, maintaining a level of troops too low to maintain any modicum of security...

Finally in the end, he followed the one plan that could actually achieve some portion of what the original intent was, to create a stable "ally" in the region. What we will have in Iraq will be a stable democratic (although Muslim) nation that allows us to maintain a base in the region, which IMO is what was the main goal to begin with.

I disagreed with the goals, but I can recognize what has happened there regardless of my disagreement. So can Obama, apparently.

I was heartened by the latest round of polls in Iraq, and the fact that in the last elections nationalism rather than religious identity won the day.
 
I can agree with what you have said, I just think of victory in a different sense.

The idea of a long term military base in the area is not my idea of victory.

Nationalism is not a good thing, either, but I guess in some sense, better than religion.
 
I can agree with what you have said, I just think of victory in a different sense.

The idea of a long term military base in the area is not my idea of victory.

Nationalism is not a good thing, either, but I guess in some sense, better than religion.

And there goes 20th Century history right out the window...
 
exactly....

this whole blame only bush game is moronic at best, and dishonest at worst, though it has been nice to see some dems on here admit that it was not only bush...

that said...if it was not only bush, then did bush really lie? saddam's own generals said he had WMDs...other governments said he had WMDs....

bush did not lie, if he did, then so did many dems and other world leaders but many dems on this board only want to blame bush....

What do all the people who said that since Iran SAID they weren't going to create a weapon with their Nuculear program, have to say now.
It's been reported that Iran has amassed enough centrifuges to complete their goal.
 
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