The surge was successful
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The fact is, if we followed his plan the surge never would have been, yet even they admit improvement which was my main thrust in the thread. Without the surge I do not believe that there would be improvement.
When I speak of "without regard to the conditions on the ground" I am speaking of that moment pre-surge, where the forces on the ground requested the surge, Obama/Udall suggested the withdrawal to begin immediately. There is little doubt of the improvement there, I gave sources that were against the surge that admit to the improvement there and for the purposes that I stated previously, so that Desh can relate as they agree with her ideologically.
Most people here suggest that all the Generals who were against it were fired, thus leaving the request to only those who agreed and would request what they wanted.
Just an FYI - I think that now would be the perfect time to begin the turnover, a bit quicker than the current turnover, and to withdraw. Finally I think that there is also common ground in the Administration thinking in that same direction, along with current Senators, Congresspeople, etc.
I think there are real signs of an ending to this, if the Administration will seize the opportunity. Unfortunately the Administration has yet to seize any of the opportunities of the past, but there is always the hope that they will accidentally walk backwards into the right decision. Or be trapped by their own words where they have stated that if the Iraqi government asks it will be our duty to leave.
I like the current Iraqi Admin saying that, pursuant to conditions on the ground, we should set a stated goal in our next Treaty setting in stone our intent to withdraw.
I think there are real signs of an ending to this, if the Administration will seize the opportunity. Unfortunately the Administration has yet to seize any of the opportunities of the past, but there is always the hope that they will accidentally walk backwards into the right decision. Or be trapped by their own words where they have stated that if the Iraqi government asks it will be our duty to leave.
I like the current Iraqi Admin saying that, pursuant to conditions on the ground, we should set a stated goal in our next Treaty setting in stone our intent to withdraw.
LOL. Just 7 more times to go!
First of all, you still have no support for your claim that Obama and Udall wanted an immediate withdraw without regardless of the conditions on the ground. I'd rather you simply concede the point and say that you were mistaken than changing the subject and pretending you said something else. But, you're Damocles so I won't hold my breath.
Secondly, you just don't get it. At all. Bush will not leave Iraq. McCain will not leave Iraq. They have no intention of doing so regardless of the situation on the ground. They intend for us to stay there indefinitely and couldn't care less what the Iraqis think of it.
Where the fuck have you been for the past three years such that you don't recognize this obvious fact?