There is no objective concept of "beauty"

Cypress said:
Sophistry.
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No, definition.


If 99.9 percent of normal, mentally stable humans recognize the intrinsic aesthetic appeal in that photo of Banff, that's as good as calling it universal.
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That would be an argument from popularity, not a definition of a universal truth.

As I noted earlier there are a HUGE number of people who LOVE the desert and would find a picture of a desert to be beautiful beyond understanding. But I don't. When I see that I see nothing that I want to be near or that I find beautiful.

The sunset is another example. I don't find sunsets UGLY by any extent and sure there are probably some sunsets I've seen that were pretty, but most of the time it is just a sunset. It isn't anything I even really think about. As such it would fail to rise to the standard of "beauty" for at least one person. Ergo not universal.
 
AProudLefty said:
We have no clue how others see the world. Some people are color blind so of course they might find some sights bland.

The point is there is something there that a person find beautiful, even isolated from society.
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But, again, not all people. And I'm not just saying the people who are unable to appreciate the colors etc. I'm saying that there are some people who are fully functional who fail to find a sunset "beautiful" and as such it cannot be a universal truth.
 
Cupressus said:
In another thread sunsets and other "beautiful" things are being discussed as if they have some intrinsic "beauty" that is universally acknowledged. This is not true. Beauty is purely subjective at every level. Just because a LOT of people find a sunset beautiful does not mean it is necessarily so. For many people a sunset isn't really "beautiful"...it just is.
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But is there no objective concept to "Cute"?

Is this baby Fruit Bat cute?

Reason why I was asking is, a young women told me just the other day, "You are so ugly, you are kind of Cute"! :whoa::laugh:

Babbling-960x640.jpg
 
Geeko Sportivo said:
But is there no objective concept to "Cute"?

Is this baby Fruit Bat cute?

Reason why I was asking is, a young women told me just the other day, "You are so ugly, you are kind of Cute"! :whoa::laugh:

Babbling-960x640.jpg
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Indeed that bat is cute. But not all bats (by a long shot). The bat like this that most humans find cute (not all) is likely "cute" because it is one of those bats that doesn't have the funky nose and looks more like a puppy than a bat.

Here's a bat, LOL:
tumblr_lpu1uboFUd1qc6j5yo1_500.jpg
 
Cupressus said:
But, again, not all people. And I'm not just saying the people who are unable to appreciate the colors etc. I'm saying that there are some people who are fully functional who fail to find a sunset "beautiful" and as such it cannot be a universal truth.
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How would you know if that person is full functional? He/she might be color blind.
 
AProudLefty said:
How would you know if that person is full functional? He/she might be color blind.
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I'm not color blind.

And, once again, if we try to leverage the presence of some other "dysfunction" based solely on the fact that the person fails to find the sunset beautiful then this is edging closer to "No True Scotsman".


(Plus color theory rests heavily upon observers...it isn't just the wavelength of light, so even color is subjective to some greater or lesser extent)
 
Cupressus said:
I'm not color blind.

And, once again, if we try to leverage the presence of some other "dysfunction" based solely on the fact that the person fails to find the sunset beautiful then this is edging closer to "No True Scotsman".


(Plus color theory rests heavily upon observers...it isn't just the wavelength of light, so even color is subjective to some greater or lesser extent)
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Being color blind was just an example. If a person doesn't find a sunset beautiful, then there is something different about that person.
 
Cupressus said:
I'm not color blind.

And, once again, if we try to leverage the presence of some other "dysfunction" based solely on the fact that the person fails to find the sunset beautiful then this is edging closer to "No True Scotsman".


(Plus color theory rests heavily upon observers...it isn't just the wavelength of light, so even color is subjective to some greater or lesser extent)
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Being color blind was just an example. If a person doesn't find a sunset beautiful, then there is something different about that person.
 
Cupressus said:
No, definition.




That would be an argument from popularity, not a definition of a universal truth.

As I noted earlier there are a HUGE number of people who LOVE the desert and would find a picture of a desert to be beautiful beyond understanding. But I don't. When I see that I see nothing that I want to be near or that I find beautiful.

The sunset is another example. I don't find sunsets UGLY by any extent and sure there are probably some sunsets I've seen that were pretty, but most of the time it is just a sunset. It isn't anything I even really think about. As such it would fail to rise to the standard of "beauty" for at least one person. Ergo not universal.
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There's a reason people go to Hawaii, Grand Canyon, Paris, Caribbean islands for vacation rather than Fargo North Dakota or Toledo Ohio

It's because human beings value intrinsic natural beauty or aesthetic charm.


Mountains-region-Ten-Peaks-Moraine-Lake-Alberta.jpg
 
AProudLefty said:
I know. Not my point. We're talking about beauty. Why do few people not find a sunset beautiful?
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How do you know it is "few"? It's a trope for people to go on about a "beautiful sunset" but that's just it...it's a popular "meme" if you will. Do you know for certain that the number of humans who fail to find a sunset "beautiful" > the number of humans who do?
 
Cupressus said:
How do you know it is "few"? It's a trope for people to go on about a "beautiful sunset" but that's just it...it's a popular "meme" if you will. Do you know for certain that the number of humans who fail to find a sunset "beautiful" > the number of humans who do?
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See 2 post above. Cypress made a point.
 
Cypress said:
There's a reason people go to Hawaii, Grand Canyon, Paris, Caribbean islands for vacation rather than Fargo North Dakota or Toledo Ohio
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One of my coworkers in Finland took his family just recently on a vacation to Detroit. So, go figure.

But I'm not disagreeing with the idea that many people do find mountains and sunsets beautiful. I LOVE that picture of Banff you posted. But that's me.

When I moved from my home state to Louisiana for my first postdoc my dad came down to visit. He looked around at this amazing swampy weirdness and decreed it "not much to see here" because it wasn't like the land he loved. He saw no real "beauty" where may (if not most) in that area saw amazing beauty.

It's because human beings value intrinsic natural beauty or aesthetic charm.
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But those are immeasurable things. One can easily say "beauty is valued", just NOT what is beautiful. In fact it's kind of an error on my part in the words I chose for the OP. Beauty is valued, but no one can really say what is "beautiful". That's wholly subjective.
 
Cupressus said:
One of my coworkers in Finland took his family just recently on a vacation to Detroit. So, go figure.

But I'm not disagreeing with the idea that many people do find mountains and sunsets beautiful. I LOVE that picture of Banff you posted. But that's me.

When I moved from my home state to Louisiana for my first postdoc my dad came down to visit. He looked around at this amazing swampy weirdness and decreed it "not much to see here" because it wasn't like the land he loved. He saw no real "beauty" where may (if not most) in that area saw amazing beauty.



But those are immeasurable things. One can easily say "beauty is valued", just NOT what is beautiful. In fact it's kind of an error on my part in the words I chose for the OP. Beauty is valued, but no one can really say what is "beautiful". That's wholly subjective.
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Thanks for proving my case.

I made the case that the concept of beauty is an objective value for humans.

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...alues-purely-subjective&p=5771976#post5771976

Humans value the intrinsic value of beauty, whether they prefer a Hawaiian sunset or Michelangelo,'s Pieta.

There are no humans who value ugliness and repulsiveness.
 
Cypress said:
Thanks for proving my case.

I made the case that the concept of beauty is an objective value for humans.

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/s...alues-purely-subjective&p=5771976#post5771976

Humans value the intrinsic value of beauty, whether they prefer a Hawaiian sunset or Michelangelo,'s Pieta.

There are no humans who value ugliness and repulsiveness.
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But it's a distinction that cannot be operationalized in any meaningful way. It's just that it is universally true that people like what they like.

If all people value "beauty" but no one can say what is "beautiful" then beauty truly lacks any sort of objective reality. It becomes nothing more than "you like what you like" which is tautological.



Plus you banned me from your thread
 
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