They Lied About Afghanistan. They Lied About Iraq. And They Are Lying About Ukraine.

[Scott]

LOL. Chris Hedges. A seeming schizo who has supported pro environmental issues, but also reported for Putin's propaganda network.

I suspect you're referring to the fact that he had a show on RT America for 6 years. Youtube decided to delete all 6 years worth last year. Amy Goodman from Democracy Now interviewed him on that. I think his first comment says a lot:

**
CHRIS HEDGES: There was no notice. There was no warning. There was no inquiry. It just vanished. It’s not surprising. I think if you go back and look at the 2017 director of national intelligence report, seven pages were devoted to RT. And while they accused RT of disseminating Russian propaganda, all the examples that they cited in that report were that RT was giving a voice to Black Lives Matter activists, anti-fracking activists, Occupy activists, third-party candidates — all of which was true. And so, I think this was the culmination. We expected it.
**

Source:
“Disappeared”: Chris Hedges Responds to YouTube Deleting His 6-Year Archive of RT America Shows | Democracy Now!

He's anti war, but delusional w/respect to Putin's hand picked govt. that usurped power in Ukraine...with hundreds of millions being paid to Manafort to achieve same.

I'm glad you acknowledge that he's anti war, but why do you think that Hedges is delusional? Also, why are you bringing up Manafort?

 

[Scott]

Chris Hedges has gone weird. He is far from liberal. He is also not exactly a righty. He is deep into conspiracies and really bad tales of world rule by the wealthy.

Anyone can claim that someone has gone "weird". I'm glad you agree that he's "not exactly a righty". As to believing conspiracies, I think a certain graphic image says a lot:

 

[Althea]

Chris Hedges has gone weird. He is far from liberal. He is also not exactly a righty. He is deep into conspiracies and really bad tales of world rule by the wealthy.

Schizo. He's all over the map. To hail Putin's leader of Ukraine as a legally elected official is ridiculous.

 

[QP!]

Wars are about money. It is really that simple. That was pointed out in Roman times. Putin wants Ukraine's land, particularly their farmland. This Nazi crap is a made-up excuse to enrich Russian oligarchs. They never have enough money.

That is a big part.

But i think the bigger part is that Ukraine was on the verge of showcasing to the world and more importantly to the Russian people that Putin and his Oligarchs are the problem that was keeping BOTH nations depressed.


During Putins rule over Ukraine with his Oligarchs, Ukraine mirrored Russia in terms of under development and being a failed State. That allowed Putin to perpetrate a myth that it due to the West being unfair to Russia.

This map shows you the change in momentum when Putin and his Oligarchs were driven out of Ukraine and how instantly Ukraine started to go on to a massive growth curve even with the still substantial pilfering of wealth going on across Ukraine.

But even more so foreign capital was starting to find Ukraine and huge investments into areas like Odessa and Kiev were happening, meaning that hockey stick growth was early in the curve.

Already Russian citizens were looking at Ukraine (Odessa) as their vacation spot and place for anyone with money to buy a second home.


Putin just could not let that continue as it made it clear that all Ukraine had to do was get rid of Putin and his Oligarchs and let National wealth flow back in to the economy and things would soar. That would threaten contagion into Russia, as they would start to want that too.

 

[Scott]

Wars are about money. It is really that simple. That was pointed out in Roman times. Putin wants Ukraine's land, particularly their farmland. This Nazi crap is a made-up excuse to enrich Russian oligarchs. They never have enough money.

That is a big part.

But i think the bigger part is that Ukraine was on the verge of showcasing to the world and more importantly to the Russian people that Putin and his Oligarchs are the problem that was keeping BOTH nations depressed.

According to who? And don't you think that the Ukrainian military's bombardment of the Donbass region immediately prior to Russia's military intervention may have had -something- to do with Putin's decision? Russia's Duma (aka their parliament) was certainly concerned about it, urging Putin to recognize the Donbass Republics. Former Swiss Intelligence Officer Jacques Baud gets into the details in an article he wrote back in March 2022, later translated to english in April 2022. Quoting from it:

**
In February 2022, events rush. On February 7, during his visit to Moscow, Emmanuel Macron reaffirms to Vladimir Putin his attachment to the Minsk Accords [youtube link in original], a commitment he will repeat after his interview with Volodymyr Zelensky [youtube link in original] the next day. But on February 11, in Berlin, after 9 hours of work, the meeting of the political advisers of the leaders of the ” Normandy format “ ends, without concrete result: the Ukrainians still and always refuse to apply the Accords of Minsk, apparently under pressure from the United States. Vladimir Putin then notes that Macron has made empty promises to him and that the West is not ready to enforce the Accords, as they have been doing for eight years.

Ukrainian preparations in the contact zone continue. The Russian Parliament is alarmed and on February 15 asks Vladimir Putin to recognize the independence of the Republics, which he refuses.

On February 17, President Joe Biden announces that Russia will attack Ukraine in the coming days. How does he know? Mystery… But since the 16th, the artillery shelling of the populations of Donbass has increased dramatically, as shown by the daily reports of OSCE observers. Naturally, neither the media, nor the European Union, nor NATO, nor any Western government reacts and intervenes. We will say later that this is Russian disinformation. In fact, it seems that the European Union and some countries purposely glossed over the massacre of the people of Donbass, knowing that it would provoke Russian intervention.



[snip]

In fact, as early as February 16, Joe Biden knows that the Ukrainians began to shell the civilian populations of Donbass, putting Vladimir Putin in front of a difficult choice: to help Donbass militarily and create an international problem or to sit idle and watch Russian speakers. from the Donbass being run over.

If he decides to intervene, Vladimir Putin can invoke the international obligation of “ Responsibility To Protect ” (R2P). But he knows that whatever its nature or scale, the intervention will trigger a shower of sanctions. Therefore, whether its intervention is limited to the Donbass or whether it goes further to put pressure on the West for the status of Ukraine, the price to be paid will be the same. This is what he explains in his speech on February 21.

That day, he acceded to the request of the Duma and recognized the independence of the two Republics of Donbass and, in the process, he signed treaties of friendship and assistance with them.

The Ukrainian artillery bombardments on the populations of Donbass continued and, on February 23, the two Republics requested military aid from Russia. On the 24th, Vladimir Putin invokes Article 51 of the United Nations Charter which provides for mutual military assistance within the framework of a defensive alliance.

In order to make the Russian intervention totally illegal in the eyes of the public we deliberately obscure the fact that the war actually started on February 16th. The Ukrainian army was preparing to attack the Donbass as early as 2021, as certain Russian and European intelligence services were well aware… The lawyers will judge.
**

Full article:
Former NATO Military Analyst Blows the Whistle on West’s Ukraine Invasion Narrative | Scheerpost

 

[QP!]

According to who?...

Says the data i showed.

What i said was 'that was part' of why Putin had to invade and i stand by that. That does not mean other factors such as the ones you point to might have been factors or used as justification, just as de-nazification was. Was there really nazis in Ukraine, yes? Just as there are many in Russia. Was that used as justification, yes.

But the history of Putin is not as a force for good. I do not see him rushing to defend others or to de-nazify an area just to get rid of 'bad people', without having an over arching personal desire that supported his personal power and wealth.

Ukraine was becoming a dangerous black eye for Putin. A place where its growing wealth, success and foreign investments screamed 'Putin is why you are failing Russia', and that growing wealth was a middle finger to Putin Oligarchs who wanted that wealth, and who he was unable to get it for them and him.

 

[Scott]

That is a big part.

But i think the bigger part is that Ukraine was on the verge of showcasing to the world and more importantly to the Russian people that Putin and his Oligarchs are the problem that was keeping BOTH nations depressed.

According to who?

Says the data i showed.

The data you showed had Ukraine recovering from its GDP per capita dive that started in 2014, the same year of of Euromaidan. The recovery was in 2020. The numbers after that were apparently only projections. And those numbers say nothing as to their cause.

What i said was 'that was part' of why Putin had to invade and i stand by that. That does not mean other factors such as the ones you point to might have been factors or used as justification, just as de-nazification was. Was there really nazis in Ukraine, yes? Just as there are many in Russia. Was that used as justification, yes.

I agree there were and probably still are Neo Nazis in Russia. I believe I heard that Ukraine had co-opted some to help them, but I can't remember where I read that, so we can just chalk that one up to rumour. Chris Hedges does actually mention the Neo Nazis in Ukraine in his article, along with other problematic aspects of Ukraine. Quoting:

**
How do we defend the decision by President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to ban eleven opposition parties, including The Opposition Platform for Life, which had 10 percent of the seats in the Supreme Council, Ukraine’s unicameral parliament, along with the Shariy Party, Nashi, Opposition Bloc, Left Opposition, Union of Left Forces, State, Progressive Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialist Party of Ukraine, Socialists Party and Volodymyr Saldo Bloc? How can we accept the banning of these opposition parties — many of which are on the left — while Zelenskyy allows fascists from the Svoboda and Right Sector parties, as well as the Banderite Azov Battalion and other extremist militias, to flourish?

How do we deal with the anti-Russian purges and arrests of supposed “fifth columnists” sweeping through Ukraine, given that 30 percent of Ukraine’s inhabitants are Russian speakers? How do we respond to the neo-Nazi groups supported by Zelenskyy’s government that harass and attack the LGBT community, the Roma population, anti-fascist protests and threaten city council members, media outlets, artists and foreign students? How can we countenance the decision by the U.S and its Western allies to block negotiations with Russia to end the war, despite Kyiv and Moscow apparently [twitter link in original] being on the verge of negotiating a peace treaty?
**

Full article:
Chris Hedges: They Lied About Afghanistan. They Lied About Iraq. And They Are Lying About Ukraine. | Scheerpost

But the history of Putin is not as a force for good.

I've certainly heard some things that suggest that he has a dark side. But then, I've heard that of a lot of other national leaders as well, including U.S. Presidents and Canadian Prime Ministers (I'm Canadian).

I do not see him rushing to defend others or to de-nazify an area just to get rid of 'bad people', without having an over arching personal desire that supported his personal power and wealth.

He certainly didn't rush in to defend ethnic Russians and de-nazify Ukraine. He waited 8 long years after Euromaidan plunged Ukraine into war. From everything I've read, he had hoped to achieve a diplomatic settlement to the conflict. The Minsk accords that he played a large role in certainly suggest this. The problem was that Ukraine and the other European signatories to the accord acted in bad faith. As they have recently admitted, they never had any intention of actually following through with the accords. The goal was to give Ukraine time to build up its military with the help of certain NATO countries, including the U.S. In the speech Putin broadcast on the day he started his military intervention in Ukraine, I certainly think I sensed an immense frustration with these diplomatic efforts that were done in bad faith from Ukraine and its western allies. Quoting from it:

**
This brings me to the situation in Donbass. We can see that the forces that staged the coup in Ukraine in 2014 have seized power, are keeping it with the help of ornamental election procedures and have abandoned the path of a peaceful conflict settlement. For eight years, for eight endless years we have been doing everything possible to settle the situation by peaceful political means. Everything was in vain.

As I said in my previous address, you cannot look without compassion at what is happening there. It became impossible to tolerate it. We had to stop that atrocity, that genocide of the millions of people who live there and who pinned their hopes on Russia, on all of us. It is their aspirations, the feelings and pain of these people that were the main motivating force behind our decision to recognise the independence of the Donbass people’s republics.

I would like to additionally emphasise the following. Focused on their own goals, the leading NATO countries are supporting the far-right nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine, those who will never forgive the people of Crimea and Sevastopol for freely making a choice to reunite with Russia.

They will undoubtedly try to bring war to Crimea just as they have done in Donbass, to kill innocent people just as members of the punitive units of Ukrainian nationalists and Hitler’s accomplices did during the Great Patriotic War. They have also openly laid claim to several other Russian regions.

If we look at the sequence of events and the incoming reports, the showdown between Russia and these forces cannot be avoided. It is only a matter of time. They are getting ready and waiting for the right moment. Moreover, they went as far as aspire to acquire nuclear weapons. We will not let this happen.

I have already said that Russia accepted the new geopolitical reality after the dissolution of the USSR. We have been treating all new post-Soviet states with respect and will continue to act this way. We respect and will respect their sovereignty, as proven by the assistance we provided to Kazakhstan when it faced tragic events and a challenge in terms of its statehood and integrity. However, Russia cannot feel safe, develop, and exist while facing a permanent threat from the territory of today’s Ukraine.
**

Source:
Here Is the Full Text of Putin’s Speech This Morning, Feb 24, 2022 | paulcraigroberts.org

Ukraine was becoming a dangerous black eye for Putin. A place where its growing wealth, success and foreign investments screamed 'Putin is why you are failing Russia', and that growing wealth was a middle finger to Putin Oligarchs who wanted that wealth, and who he was unable to get it for them and him.

I've seen absolutely no evidence for this theory of yours. What I did see was Ukraine's military mercilessly pounding on the Donbass cities for rebelling from a Ukraine that had become hostile to ethnic Russians and Ukrainian Russian speakers, perhaps most importantly immediately prior to Russia's military intervention in Ukraine.

Zelensky, himself a Russian speaking Ukrainian, once brought up Ukraine's Neo Nazi leanings in a comedic skit he did back in 2015, as well as the persecution of Ukraine's ethnic Russians. It's here if you're interested in seeing it:

 

[QP!]

The data you showed had Ukraine recovering from its GDP per capita dive that started in 2014, the same year of of Euromaidan. The recovery was in 2020. The numbers after that were apparently only projections. And those numbers say nothing as to their cause....

NO. 2014 and 2015 were a period of flat, in terms of how you would assess a curve. Look at any stock chart over time. Look at any GDP chart over time. There must always be periods of interruption and flat. No curve typically goes unendingly in one direction unless the company/country is bankrupt. Ukraine with its asset base was not going to bankrupt and that is why Putin wanted it. It could be milked and looted forever just as he was doing with Russia and then he could blame the under performance of the economy on the 'mean old West' picking on them while he bought his 100th mega yacht.

That period of flat can either then begin an inflection point or it can be part of a double dip and just keep going down.

It is clear that it became an inflection point.

Something changed in that graph in 2016 that showed Ukraine moving into a cycle of growth and prosperity and that was the election of Zelenski and the pushing out of Putin's Oligarch business men who were in control of much of the resource wealth and syphoning off that wealth and sending it back to Russia instead of allowing it to be reinvested in Ukraine growth and prosperity.

Ukraine still had lots of legacy corruption in all systems but getting rid of the big dog (Putin Oligarchs) still resulted in massive benefits to the country and that showed instantly and paid off. Foreign investors began to come back to Ukraine in big ways and especially to make investments in Odessa and Kiev. Odessa was showing signs of being one of the biggest tourist destinations in the region.

Russian citizens increasingly were seeing Odessa as their preferred vacation destination.

It was that view of Ukraine... a view of Ukraine soaring and being a dream place (destination) when the only thing that had really changed was the removal of Putin and his Oligarchs, that was one of the biggest threats to Putin. Inevitably over time more and more Russians would question 'why not here??' Why is our neighbour, and people who are our kin, able to build wealth and prosperity and not us?

Putin could not risk letting them connect those dots, when his decades old message has been 'we cannot succeed as the West will not allow us to', when Ukraine might prove that wrong, in very visual and undeniable ways.