To BAC and all lost on the reality regarding Iraq

WRL said:
lol, ran away, I brought it to it's own thread, and clearly you got OWNED here. You are clearly a far lost leftist, more than likely to far gone for redemption.

Since you really only addressed one of my points I'll retort...
Saddam had invaded nearly every one of his neighbors, used WMD indiscriminately, funded and promoted terrorism. Iraq very much fit the 'war on terror' mold, and after 13 years and countless failed UN resolutions his time ran it's course.

I've already given you nicely summed up quotes from the chief weapons inspector, and your second link was a study funded by George Soros, some unbiased source there.

You call me a coward, I think you're upset I brought this to it's own thread where you could duly get your ass handed to you..
Click to expand...

Missed the part about what Powell said, eh?

OH wait .. did you mean THIS Chief Weapons Inspector?

Report concludes no WMD in Iraq

Iraq had no stockpiles of biological, chemical or nuclear weapons before last year's US-led invasion, the chief US weapons inspector has concluded.
Iraq Survey Group head Charles Duelfer said Iraq's nuclear capability had decayed not grown since the 1991 war.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3718150.stm

OR .. could you mean THIS Chief Weapons Inspector .. who happened to belong to Bush?

U.N.: Iraq had no WMD after 1994

UNITED NATIONS — A report from U.N. weapons inspectors to be released today says they now believe there were no weapons of mass destruction of any significance in Iraq after 1994, according to two U.N. diplomats who have seen the document.

The historical review of inspections in Iraq is the first outside study to confirm the recent conclusion by David Kay, the former U.S. chief inspector, that Iraq had no banned weapons before last year's U.S-led invasion. It also goes further than prewar U.N. reports, which said no weapons had been found but noted that Iraq had not fully accounted for weapons it was known to have had at the end of the Gulf War in 1991.
The report, to be outlined to the U.N. Security Council as early as Friday, is based on information gathered over more than seven years of U.N. inspections in Iraq before the 2003 war, plus postwar findings discussed publicly by Kay.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-03-02-un-wmd_x.htm

OR .. could you mean these 1,625 UN and US Weapons Inspectors?

There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq

1,625 UN and US inspectors spent two years searching 1,700 sites at a cost of more than $1bn. Yesterday they delivered their verdict .

Saddam Hussein destroyed his last weapons of mass destruction more than a decade ago and his capacity to build new ones had been dwindling for years by the time of the Iraq invasion, according to a comprehensive US report released yesterday.

The report, the culmination of an intensive 15-month search by 1,200 inspectors from the CIA's Iraq Survey Group (ISG), concluded that Saddam had ambitions to restart at least chemical and nuclear programmes once sanctions were lifted.

However, concrete plans do not appear to have been laid down, let alone set in motion. Nor did Saddam issue direct verbal orders to develop weapons of mass destruction (WMD). The main evidence of his intentions are his own cryptic remarks, and the meaning his aides inferred from them.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1321538,00.html

Dude .. only a complete idiot would still be trying to make the uber-stupid argument that the invasion of Iraq was anything but a complete and total fraud.

Tell me genius .. how much WMD was found?

How about this dummy?

Report finds mass deception in run-up to war

Iraq -- The War Card: Orchestrated Deception on the Path to War."

Five years ago, the drumbeat for pre-emptive war with Iraq was already omnipresent as talking points among Bush administration officials and in saturation media reports of those statements. The drumbeat gathered significant tempo and strength as first President Bush and then Secretary of State Colin Powell took to the national and world stages in tones and terms that rang with certainty.

Saddam Hussein sought uranium from Africa, Bush said in his State of the Union address five years ago tomorrow night.

Saddam was hiding chemical and biological weapons and was resurrecting his country's nuclear weapons program, Powell told the United Nations in a presentation that included photos and audiotapes, in early February.

On March 19, 2003, the war began.

On May 1, 2003, Bush appeared on an aircraft carrier with a Mission Accomplished banner hanging behind him.

By summer of 2003, the arguments the administration had made for war were beginning to fall apart -- no weapons of mass destruction found, no WMD-related programs located, no significant ties to al-Qaida established, then or since -- and shock and awe gave way to shock and anger.

Five years later, almost 4,000 members of the U.S. military have died in Iraq, at least 3,200 of them from hostile action; 61 of the dead came from Kentucky and 86 came from Indiana. The numbers for Iraqis are less certain: Accounts vary widely, but the independent Iraq Body Count puts Iraqi civilian deaths as a result of violence at between 80,000 and 88,000 since the war began.

Ancient history? Old news? A little beside the point after all this time?

Hardly.

As the war is at the heart of the current presidential race, as one candidate has said a 100-year U.S. presence in Iraq would be fine with him, as U.S. citizens continue to sign the checks and furnish the troops for the war, Americans owe it to themselves to examine how we got to this place.

A new report conducted by two non-profit, non-partisan and independent journalism organizations provides some perspective, and it is not a pretty picture.

Last week, the Center for Public Integrity and the Fund for Independence in Journalism released "Iraq -- The War Card: Orchestrated Deception on the Path to War."

The report is a result of a three-year effort to analyze and annotate every public statement made by President Bush and seven top administration officials about Iraq's WMDs and its links to al-Qaida between Sept. 11, 2001 and Sept. 11, 2003. And the report's authors did more: They juxtaposed those statements against what the officials knew and what they were saying in private.

Nearly 1,000 falsehoods

The project's bottom line: President Bush and his top officials made at least 935 false statements about those two subjects in that two-year period.

The findings can be found in full at www.publicintegrity.org, and anyone with a computer connection is able to read their conclusions as well as use the 388,000-word database of the statements made by Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Powell, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and White House Press Secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan.

In a Jan. 23 speech to the National Press Club, Charles Lewis, founder of the Center for Public Integrity and the instigator of the project, said the information was being presented "as a public service and as an accessible historic record."

He also explained the methodology of examining the statements analyzed in the report (a fuller explanation also can be found on the Web site): "These statements were painstakingly collected from the Web sites of the White House, State Department and Defense Department, as well as from transcripts of interviews and briefings, texts of speeches and testimony, prepared statements, and the like. Into this database, we also interlaced chronologically time-relevant information from more than 25 government reports, memoirs, books, articles, speeches or broadcast interviews quoting or written by former and current, senior U.S. officials which have become publicly available the past more than six years, since Sept. 11, 2001."

'Orchestrated campaign'

And he expressed a conclusion about what the data show: "…Looking back nearly five years after the fateful Iraq war began, an exhaustive examination of the statements shows that they were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses . . .
" . . . The cumulative effect of these false statements -- amplified by thousands of news stories and broadcasts -- was massive, with the media coverage creating an almost impenetrable din for several critical months in the run-up to war. Some journalists -- indeed, even some entire news organizations -- have since acknowledged that their coverage during those prewar months was far too deferential and uncritical. These mea culpas notwithstanding, much of the wall-to-wall media coverage provided additional 'independent' validation of the Bush administration's false statements about Iraq."

Avoiding scrutiny

And in a piece he co-authored on the Web site, Lewis wrote that Bush and his top officials had "so far largely avoided the harsh, sustained glare of formal scrutiny about their personal responsibility for the litany of repeated, false statements."

"Short of such review," he wrote, "this project provides a heretofore unavailable framework for examining how the U.S. war in Iraq came to pass. Clearly it calls into question the repeated assertions of Bush administration officials that they were the unwitting victims of bad intelligence."

There is much to discover and to think about as you go through this report and its database. I am reminded, again, what happens when important components in our nation fall down in what they are supposed to be and do. In this case, Congress, as an equal branch of government that is supposed to provide oversight. And in this case, the news media, which is supposed to be an independent and skeptical watchdog.

One of the gems to be found on www.publicintegrity.org is about a 10-minute interview with former U.S. Rep. Lee Hamilton of Indiana, one of the co-chairs of the 9/11 commission. Like the rest of the report, it's well worth your time and attention, especially the part in which he speaks about accountability being paramount to protecting the integrity of the American system.

Five years into a war which was ushered in on a carpet of demonstrated and footnoted misinformation, it's fair to question that integrity, even as we continue to want to believe in it.
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080127/COLUMNISTS10/801270439

WOW ..imagine that?

"Owned?"

"Ass handed to me?"

:shock:

You've got to be one of the dumbest people on the planet .. but I warned you that you would look exactly as stupid as you do now.
 
OMG you have to be one dense moron...

First of all , there where WMD found in Iraq...

Munitions Found in Iraq Meet WMD Criteria

The 500 munitions discovered throughout Iraq since 2003 and discussed in a National Ground Intelligence Center report meet the criteria of weapons of mass destruction...

"These are chemical weapons as defined under the Chemical Weapons Convention, and yes ... they do constitute weapons of mass destruction," the National Ground Intelligence Center Commander told the House Armed Services Committee.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=15918


I'm not disputing that many nations intelligence grossly got it wrong on the amount, and extent, that's the nature of intel, piecing together a picture, with fragments of the image, and it's since also been reveled that Saddam personally admitted to overplaying his WMD hand to play with Iran.

My point is simple, and correct, quoting the 'experts' does not constitute a lie, no matter how many George Soros funded studies you have to show it. Especially when the man is infamous for USING them.

Iraq has used WMD, and it had knowledge of their development and deployment...

halabja1.jpg


Here is your innocent man dropping WMD on Iraqi villages of civilians

halabja.JPG



To act immature and claim Bush is the evil player, and a hell bent war mongering liar, simply for removing a tyrant, for which he gave many reasons, one of which didn't pan out to full prewar intel, is pretty ridiculous and immature. Saddam's record still stands, he was still in violation of the ceasefire agreement, he was still the man rebuked this many times in the UN...

1490, 1483, 1476, 1472, 1454, 1443, 1441, 1409, 1382, 1360, 1352, 1330, 1302, 1293, 1284, 1281, 1280, 1275, 1266, 1242, 1210, 1205, 1194, 1175, 1158, 1154, 1153, 1143, 1137, 1134, 1129, 1115, 1111, 1060, 1051, 986, 949, 899, 806, 778, 773, 715, 712, 707, 706, 705, 699, 692, 689, 688, 687, 686, 685, 678, 677, 676, 674, 671, 670, 669, 667, 666, 665, 664, 662, 661, 660

He had 13 years to comply, to stop invading, stop weapons development, to stop supporting terrorism, which became the final nail is Saddam Hussein...

Saddam Husein and his state run media, promoting and propagating terrorism. The State Department has listed Iraq as a state sponsor of terrorism through both Democrat and Republican administrations.


U.S.S. Cole Bombing, October 12, 2000
"[Iraqis] should intensify struggle and jihad in all fields and by all means..."
Iraq TV, October 22, 2000 (State-controlled)

"Does [America] realize the meaning of every Iraqi becoming a missile that can cross to countries and cities?"
Saddam Hussein, September 29, 1994

"The real perpetrators [of September 11] are within the collapsed buildings."
Alif-Ba, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)


Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996
"[The U.S.] should send more coffins to Saudi Arabia, because no one can guess what the future has in store."
Saddam Hussein, Iraqi Radio, June 27, 1996


"[O]ur striking arm will reach [America, Britain and Saudi Arabia] before they know what hit them."
Al-Qadisiyah, October 6, 1994 (State-controlled newspaper)


"One chemical weapon fired in a moment of despair could cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands." Al-Quds al-Arabi, October 12, 1994 (State-controlled newspaper)


"[September 11 was] God's punishment."
Al-Iktisadi, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)


The Attacks of September 11
"The United States reaps the thorns its rulers have planted in the world."
Saddam Hussein, September 12, 2001


"If the attacks of September 11 cost the lives of 3,000 civilians, how much will the size of losses in 50 states within 100 cities if it were attacked in the same way in which New York and Washington were? What would happen if hundreds of planes attacked American cities?"
Al-Rafidayn, September 11, 2002 (State-controlled newspaper)

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/iraq/sadquots.htm



you can be immature about this all you want, claim victory on a ludicrous indefensible position, call an honest man a liar, play your pathetic partisan snipe games, since those who killed American's aren't a good enough target for war for you, but at the end of the day, the entire picture counts, Saddam's support for terrorism, like the $25,000 he would pay to the families of suicide bombers, his use and knowledge of WMD deployment coupled with his terrorist ties, Saddam's many invasions, and finally his violations of the pathetic agreements, over 13 long embarrassing years that left him in power in 1991. That resulted in Operation Iraqi Freedom, not any lie.
 
I guess I never realized that Bushies had such a sense of humor.

I mean, WRL has to be making a joke right ?
 
dumbest person on earth, yet you didn't even know we had in fact found WMD in Iraq, just not the stockpiles predicted. Not to mention you ignore every other reason for Operation Iraqi Freedom. And it's not an issue of accuracy, it's the degree of accuracy that's the question. But we are talking about quoting intel, not campaign promises. Therefor you lose, because that is an indefensible position.
 
WRL said:
dumbest person on earth, yet you didn't even know we had in fact found WMD in Iraq, just not the stockpiles predicted. Not to mention you ignore every other reason for Operation Iraqi Freedom. And it's not an issue of accuracy, it's the degree of accuracy that's the question. But we are talking about quoting intel, not campaign promises. Therefor you lose, because that is an indefensible position.
Click to expand...

Someone should tell the media that the WMD that 4,000 and counting Americans have died for, and 30,000 have been maimed for, have been found!

I can't believe nobody told them!

:party:
 
WRL said:
wow you talk a lot of smack for someone lost in propaganda... That crappy link is the mainstream source for all this talk??? I've seriously debated even continuing here, but since you called me out...


Has Iraq sponsored terrorism?
Yes. Saddam Hussein’s dictatorship provided headquarters, operating bases, training camps, and other support to terrorist. During the 1991 Gulf War, Saddam commissioned several failed terrorist attacks on U.S. facilities. The State Department has listed Iraq as a state sponsor of terrorism through both Democrat and Republican administrations.

http://cfrterrorism.org/sponsors/iraq.html

Has Iraq ever used weapons of mass destruction?
Yes. In the 1980s Iran-Iraq War, Iraqi troops repeatedly used poison gas, including mustard gas and the nerve agent sarin, against Iranian soldiers, and dropping mustard-gas bombs on Iranian villages. Human Rights Watch reports that Iraq frequently used nerve agents and mustard gas against Iraqi Kurds living in the country’s north. In March 1988, Saddam’s forces killed thousands of Iraqi Kurds in the town of Halabja with chemical weapons.
(Warning very graphic)
http://www.firethistime.org/halabjavictims.jpg
http://www.iraqdigest.com/Halabja-.jpg


Coalition troops destroyed terrorist training camps
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock040703.asp


Saddam Hussein paid bonuses of up to $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/03/25/1017004766310.html

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, formerly the director of an al Qaeda training base in Afghanistan, fled to Iraq after being shot as the Taliban fell. He crossed Iran to flee into Iraq, where he was treated in state operated hospital. His safe place to fall back to was Iraq, were he set up terrorist operations against a common enemy al qeada and Saddam shared, the Kurds.


The weapons inspectors

Even in the absence if actual WMDs, those who combed through the remains of Saddam’s regime in Iraq have already turned up incontrovertible evidence of intent. Dr. David Kay, the chief arms investigator, reported results to congress, he found:

1.) A clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment for continuing chemical and Biological weapons research.

2.) A prison laboratory complex used in human testing of BW agents, which Iraqi officials were explicitly order not to report to the UN.

3.) New research on BW-applicable agents, Burcella and Congo Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin, which were not declared to the UN and done in secret.

4.) Documents and equipment, hidden in scientist’s homes that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation.

5.) Reference strains used to produce biological weapons concealed in scientist’s home

6.) A line of UAV’s undeclared and that tested way out of range, with weapons delivering abilities.

7.) Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, and Iraqi scientist’s admission of concealment from the UN.

8.) Plans and designs for long range missilery with ranges of up to 1000 km, well beyond the imposed UN limits

9.) Clandestine attempts at obtaining long range missilery from the N. Korean’s.


Any way you slice it,

there’s no denying Saddam’s intent- not only to develop prohibited weaponry, but to destroy all traces of any weapon.

“In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts” Dr. Kay told Congress,

“We have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documents and computers evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/2003/david_kay_10022003.html


UN Security Council resolutions on Iraq, threatening war, now just imagine this in our own terms, would you be ok with a murderer getting a slap on the wrist and a reprimand this many times to run free in your community.

1490, 1483, 1476, 1472, 1454, 1443, 1441, 1409, 1382, 1360, 1352, 1330, 1302, 1293, 1284, 1281, 1280, 1275, 1266, 1242, 1210, 1205, 1194, 1175, 1158, 1154, 1153, 1143, 1137, 1134, 1129, 1115, 1111, 1060, 1051, 986, 949, 899, 806, 778, 773, 715, 712, 707, 706, 705, 699, 692, 689, 688, 687, 686, 685, 678, 677, 676, 674, 671, 670, 669, 667, 666, 665, 664, 662, 661, 660

13 years of failed diplomacy for this...

Saddam was bribing the international community through the UN, to prevent any action on these many, many, resolutions he was flaunting. Saddam was setting the precedence to bribe your way through the UN, and the corrupt body has yet to do anything serious to reform itself.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/saddam_oil_vouchers_040129-4.html

Saddam’s Gifts
Document: Saddam Supporters Received Lucrative Oil Contracts Continued

Russia
Head of the Russian Presidential Cabinet: 90 million
The Companies of the Russian Communist Party: 137 million
The Companies of the Liberal Democratic Party: 79.8 million

France
Bernard Merimee, French ambassador to the United Nations: 3 million
Charles Pasqua, minister of interior: 12 million

Palestinian Territories
The Palestinian Liberation Organization: 4 million
Abu Al Abbas: 11.5 million

Libya
Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem: 1 million

Syria
Firas Mostafa Tlass, son of Syria's defense minister: 6 million

Turkey
Zeynel Abidin Erdem: more than 27 million
Lotfy Doghan: more than 11 million

Indonesia
Megawati Sukarnoputri: 11 million

Spain
Ali Ballout, 8.8 million

Canada
Arthur Millholland, 9.5 million


9/11 Commission findings...

Bin Laden aided a group of Islamist extremists operating in Kurdistan. In the late 1990s, these extremist groups suffered major defeats by Kurdish forces. In 2001, with Bin Ladin’s help they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that

the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam

-911 Commission Final Report 7/22/04

With the Sudanese regime acting as intermediary, Bin Ladin himself met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officers in Khartoum in late 1994 or early 1995… the ensuing years saw additional efforts to establish connections.


-911 Commission Final Report 7/22/04

On November 4, 1998, the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York unsealed its indictment of Bin Ladin. The indictment added that al Qaeda had “reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.”109


-911 Commission Final Report 7/22/04


4_CompM2-US-Army.jpg
Click to expand...

Thank God we stopped Saddam for doing all those things he did 20 years ago.

Couldn't help out the million killed in Rwanda, but Iraq is important.
 
Rwanda, look at everything Iraq has done, and you still have people idolizing Saddam as some patron saint here. The ultimate answer is to fix the UN, but not one canidate is talking about it, and only the Republicans even acknowledge it's broken.

Here is a wonderful example of what comprises today's UN

Libya ordered to pay billions to US victims of 1989 bombing

WASHINGTON, Jan 16, 2008 (AFP) - A US judge has ordered Libya and six intelligence officials to pay billions of dollars in damages to relatives of Americans killed in the 1989 suitcase bombing of a French airliner over Niger.
http://www.politicalgateway.com/news/read/125255


Libya elected chairman of the United Nations Human Rights Commission

despite opposition from the United States. In a secret ballot, Libyan Ambassador Najat Al-Hajjaji was backed by 33 members, with three countries voting against and 17 members abstaining.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2672029.stm
 
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