Trump found to have fraudulently boosted value of non-existent Scots properties

T. A. Gardner said:
Yep. Banks need to do due diligence and in Trump's case they did. Now, if he had repeatedly bilked banks out of millions and didn't repay them, different story. Government has ZERO business getting involved in what amounts to a private contract between two parties that was successfully completed to the satisfaction of both parties. ZERO.

What you are asking for is government to step in as a arbitrary and authoritarian arbiter of private contracts that can determine if they are acceptable to the government and if not, the government can enrich itself to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars it did nothing to deserve.

It's like basing fines for civil law violations on wealth while at the same time not requiring government to show any sort of harm or damages that resulted. What you want is essentially a "speed trap" where the judge rules you libel before you can say anything in your own defense and then charges you a fine based on your net wealth and ability to pay. Pay the speeding ticket! Because you're worth millions, your fine is $500,000...
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So then you simply have zero comprehension of the law AS IT EXISTS as almost every thing you say above is wrong.

If you Terry, go around submitting completely fraudulent loan applications or insurance applications saying you own property you do not and other such lies, and you get turned down, you still CAN and WILL BE charged if turned in.

Any business that does that will also.

Your entire premise that 'they would not as that would be gov't assuming the authority of arbiter of private contracts' is bot WRONG and STUPID. A government is not getting in to the negotiations of private contracts to say 'one cannot submit fraudulent claims'. That is 'protecting the market'.


In your alternative world Terry every single business engaging in business with others can submit as much fraud as they want and the only punishment is the other party catching them in diligence and turning them down.

Again that is NOT how society works today, not even a little bit.

Documents fraud, such as Trump did, is and ALWAYS has been, since before Trumps birth, a crime, even if not one loan is funded.
 
QP! said:
So then you simply have zero comprehension of the law AS IT EXISTS as almost every thing you say above is wrong.
If you Terry, go around submitting completely fraudulent loan applications or insurance applications saying you own property you do not and other such lies, and you get turned down, you still CAN and WILL BE charged if turned in.
Any business that does that will also.
Your entire premise that 'they would not as that would be gov't assuming the authority of arbiter of private contracts' is bot WRONG and STUPID. A government is not getting in to the negotiations of private contracts to say 'one cannot submit fraudulent claims'. That is 'protecting the market'.
In your alternative world Terry every single business engaging in business with others can submit as much fraud as they want and the only punishment is the other party catching them in diligence and turning them down.
Again that is NOT how society works today, not even a little bit.
Documents fraud, such as Trump did, is and ALWAYS has been, since before Trumps birth, a crime, even if not one loan is funded.
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You are now making a reductio ad absurdum argument that shows I'm correct. At what point does misrepresenting the value of real estate become fraud? An example of a prominent person being tried CORRECTLY for this was Arizona governor Fife Symington. Symington, like Trump, was a developer. He was tried over bank fraud too, but by the feds, not the state because the state wasn't the party involved. In the end he was convicted of bank fraud because some of the loans he had taken out weren't repaid in full or he forced the lender(s) to release him from payment under duress. There was actual harm involved and the feds took the case because it is they that regulate banks, not individual states.

James not only didn't have legal authority over Trump's contractual loans because the banks are federally regulated and his business was interstate in nature, but she didn't even have fucking victim. At least in the case of Symington, there was actual, measurable, harm to the parties loaning him money.

So, again, at what point does someone's estimate of real estate value become fraud? My position is, when that results in a loss to the other party to a contract as written.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
You are now making a reductio ad absurdum argument that shows I'm correct. At what point does misrepresenting the value of real estate become fraud? An example of a prominent person being tried CORRECTLY for this was Arizona governor Fife Symington. Symington, like Trump, was a developer. He was tried over bank fraud too, but by the feds, not the state because the state wasn't the party involved. In the end he was convicted of bank fraud because some of the loans he had taken out weren't repaid in full or he forced the lender(s) to release him from payment under duress. There was actual harm involved and the feds took the case because it is they that regulate banks, not individual states.

James not only didn't have legal authority over Trump's contractual loans because the banks are federally regulated and his business was interstate in nature, but she didn't even have fucking victim. At least in the case of Symington, there was actual, measurable, harm to the parties loaning him money.

So, again, at what point does someone's estimate of real estate value become fraud? My position is, when that results in a loss to the other party to a contract as written.
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Again, you use words you do not understand.

Documents Fraud is not defined by the extent and IS DEFINED by the action. Again you prove yourself to have zero comprehension of what the actual law is.

But lets take an example that Terry inherits an undeveloped parcel of land. Do you think Terry can go around numerous banks with statements he printed up claiming it has 2500 fully developed homes on it, in attempts to borrow against it at 10 times what its assessed value shows it is worth, and if the banks do not fund but turn him in, do you think the legal system can do anything to Terry?

Do you think current laws do not allow such prosecution?
 
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QP! said:
Again, you use words you do not understand.

Documents Fraud is not defined by the extent and IS DEFINED by the action. Again you prove yourself to have zero comprehension of what the actual law is.

But lets take an example that Terry inherits an undeveloped parcel of land. Do you think Terry can go around numerous banks with statements he printed up claiming it has 2500 fully developed homes on it, in attempts to borrow against it at 10 times what its assessed value shows it is worth, and if the banks do not fund but turn him in, do you think the legal system can do anything to Terry?

Do you think current laws do not allow such prosecution?
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With real estate, when is a valuation fraud, versus when it is not? It is you that doesn't understand. A piece of real estate is worth exactly as much as it sells for in a transaction. How much it is worth the rest of the time is nothing but an educated guess at best. That is why banks do their own assessments and not just take the word of a developer as to its value.

The way you make it out is if a developer says anything the government disagrees with in valuing a property, it amounts to fraud. That's why the normal--NORMAL--standard for this is that a party was harmed by the valuation. That is, they lost money because the recipient of the loan lied sufficiently to not be able to pay the loan back.

The court's opinion is as worthless as that of the developer as to the value of a piece of real estate.

And, that's not even tossing in that the State of New York has ZERO interest in properties outside of that state in such a transaction with a federally insured and international bank. Those are things for the federal government to handle. Because now it's a case of interstate commerce, not something local.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
With real estate, when is a valuation fraud, versus when it is not? It is you that doesn't understand. A piece of real estate is worth exactly as much as it sells for in a transaction. How much it is worth the rest of the time is nothing but an educated guess at best....l.
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STOP BEING STUPID.

If Terry inherits a bare piece of land and it is values at $X in a valuation and Terry takes his computer and laser printer and creates documents saying that land has 2500 developed homes on it WHEN IT DOES NOT and is worth $10X, that is not an issue of an educated GUESS.

Are you so stupid you think we are GUESSING as to whether or not their 2500 homes on it or not and that is not a matter of FACT?


Are you Terry, saying you think it is fine and legal to print there are 2500 homes on that land when there are not and that is not fraud, when you go to various banks or lenders and try and get money against it?
 
QP! said:
STOP BEING STUPID.

If Terry inherits a bare piece of land and it is values at $X in a valuation and Terry takes his computer and laser printer and creates documents saying that land has 2500 developed homes on it WHEN IT DOES NOT and is worth $10X, that is not an issue of an educated GUESS.

Are you so stupid you think we are GUESSING as to whether or not their 2500 homes on it or not and that is not a matter of FACT?


Are you Terry, saying you think it is fine and legal to print there are 2500 homes on that land when there are not and that is not fraud, when you go to various banks or lenders and try and get money against it?
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After a few years of observation and discussion, I doubt stupidity is Terry’s primary problem.

Trump clearly fraudulently overvalued his properties to access cheaper rates of interest and higher values of loans from banks. Part of the blame goes to the banks for not having an independent means of evaluating the properties. That has nothing to do with TrumpCo’s deceit.
 
Doc Dutch said:
After a few years of observation and discussion, I doubt stupidity is Terry’s primary problem.

Trump clearly fraudulently overvalued his properties to access cheaper rates of interest and higher values of loans from banks. Part of the blame goes to the banks for not having an independent means of evaluating the properties. That has nothing to do with TrumpCo’s deceit.
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I want to be clear as the issue i am presenting has NOTHING to do with peoples view of valuations and how two people can differ.

This is about having barren land, and taking your own computer and printer and printing up documents that say the barren land has 2500 fully built houses on it and then adding the value for the HOUSES and taking that fraudlent representation to the bank to finance against.

Terry is replying to that question with 'two people can disagree over value' which is not the issue, and is why he is being stupid.
 
Nordberg said:
I do not know if his lying to America's IRS is a crime in Scotland.
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Void argument fallacy and gaslighting.

What lie? That non-existent properties were improperly valued in a nation that isn't even in the US???

The IRS has no jurisdiction in Scotland and Scotland has no jurisdiction over the IRS.
 
QP! said:
So then you simply have zero comprehension of the law AS IT EXISTS as almost every thing you say above is wrong.

If you Terry, go around submitting completely fraudulent loan applications or insurance applications saying you own property you do not and other such lies, and you get turned down, you still CAN and WILL BE charged if turned in.

Any business that does that will also.

Your entire premise that 'they would not as that would be gov't assuming the authority of arbiter of private contracts' is bot WRONG and STUPID. A government is not getting in to the negotiations of private contracts to say 'one cannot submit fraudulent claims'. That is 'protecting the market'.


In your alternative world Terry every single business engaging in business with others can submit as much fraud as they want and the only punishment is the other party catching them in diligence and turning them down.

Again that is NOT how society works today, not even a little bit.

Documents fraud, such as Trump did, is and ALWAYS has been, since before Trumps birth, a crime, even if not one loan is funded.
Click to expand...

No fraud. It is YOU that has no comprehension of the law or the Constitution.
You cannot blame YOUR problems on Trump or anybody else.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
With real estate, when is a valuation fraud, versus when it is not? It is you that doesn't understand. A piece of real estate is worth exactly as much as it sells for in a transaction. How much it is worth the rest of the time is nothing but an educated guess at best. That is why banks do their own assessments and not just take the word of a developer as to its value.

The way you make it out is if a developer says anything the government disagrees with in valuing a property, it amounts to fraud. That's why the normal--NORMAL--standard for this is that a party was harmed by the valuation. That is, they lost money because the recipient of the loan lied sufficiently to not be able to pay the loan back.

The court's opinion is as worthless as that of the developer as to the value of a piece of real estate.

And, that's not even tossing in that the State of New York has ZERO interest in properties outside of that state in such a transaction with a federally insured and international bank. Those are things for the federal government to handle. Because now it's a case of interstate commerce, not something local.
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The SOTNY has no jurisdiction out of the SOTNY. The 'judge' has no authority to valuate ANY property, and broke the law.
 
QP! said:
STOP BEING STUPID.
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Take your own advice, Kewpie.
QP! said:
If Terry inherits a bare piece of land and it is values at $X in a valuation and Terry takes his computer and laser printer and creates documents saying that land has 2500 developed homes on it WHEN IT DOES NOT and is worth $10X, that is not an issue of an educated GUESS.
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No fraud.
QP! said:
Are you so stupid you think we are GUESSING as to whether or not their 2500 homes on it or not and that is not a matter of FACT?
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Irrelevant. No fraud.
QP! said:
Are you Terry, saying you think it is fine and legal to print there are 2500 homes on that land when there are not and that is not fraud, when you go to various banks or lenders and try and get money against it?
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No fraud. The banks will do their own valuation of any securities and make the decision of whether they give the loan based on that, if they decide to loan the money at all.
 
Doc Dutch said:
After a few years of observation and discussion, I doubt stupidity is Terry’s primary problem.

Trump clearly fraudulently overvalued his properties to access cheaper rates of interest and higher values of loans from banks. Part of the blame goes to the banks for not having an independent means of evaluating the properties. That has nothing to do with TrumpCo’s deceit.
Click to expand...

The banks have an independent means to evaluate the properties, Sock.
 
QP! said:
I want to be clear as the issue i am presenting has NOTHING to do with peoples view of valuations and how two people can differ.
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Paradox. Irrational. You cannot argue both sides of a paradox.
QP! said:
This is about having barren land, and taking your own computer and printer and printing up documents that say the barren land has 2500 fully built houses on it and then adding the value for the HOUSES and taking that fraudlent representation to the bank to finance against.
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Attempted proof by contrivance. Barren land has value. If the bank agrees upon a value, it will issue the loan. Otherwise, it won't. No fraud.
QP! said:
Terry is replying to that question with 'two people can disagree over value' which is not the issue, and is why he is being stupid.
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It is two people disagreeing over value. Even barren land has value.
 
Althea said:
If he doesn't default, probably not. If he lowballs the value to avoid Scottish taxation, then here he goes again.
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How do you default on properties that don't exist?????? How do you default on a loan that doesn't exist????? What tax do you owe on property that does not exist?????
 
QP! said:
I want to be clear as the issue i am presenting has NOTHING to do with peoples view of valuations and how two people can differ.

This is about having barren land, and taking your own computer and printer and printing up documents that say the barren land has 2500 fully built houses on it and then adding the value for the HOUSES and taking that fraudlent representation to the bank to finance against.

Terry is replying to that question with 'two people can disagree over value' which is not the issue, and is why he is being stupid.
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Still looking to see if Terry will continue to duck the above question by not directly addressing it.

Terry 'do you think, under today's laws, it is perfectly legal to be the owner of barren plot of land you had valued of $X, and you use your computer and printer, to instead print off valuations you create, saying the land has 2500 homes already built on it, and you add that value to the land and present of a valuation to various Banks of $10X'? And if the Banks do not fund you but report you, the government can do NOTHING under todays existing fraud laws? The government must allow you to keep shopping for Funder (Bank or private) if you can find one who will fund you.
 
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