Ukrainian neo-Nazis attack Moscow concert hall

[martin]

Hamas(Russia's ally) massacres people at a music festival, as a special gift to Putin on his birthday. It then uses a hospital as human shields. ISIS attacks a Russian concert hall. Russia kidnaps Ukrainian children.

The world is a brutal place... But I do not see Ukraine going over the line. If Israel is going over the line, it is just barely.

What does "going over the line just barely" mean?

What it seems to mean is willingness of American liberals to overlook atrocities committed by Israel they would never overlook committed against Israel. In that regard, a member of this forum said yesterday he is considering whether Palestinian infants and children can be fairly compared to germs on a toilet.

"Going over the line" in war is nothing less than violating International laws against war crimes. Israel knows better than any nation what that means.

 

[Walt]

What does "going over the line just barely" mean?

Hamas targeted civilians, and avoided engaging soldiers. They dragged a naked German woman through the streets. I could go on and on, but they are clearly over the line, and terrorists.

Hamas has also used their own civilians as human shields. Israel has not done as much as they could to avoid civilian casualties when Hamas uses civilians as human shields. That is maybe, just barely over the line.

"Going over the line" in war is nothing less than violating International laws against war crimes. Israel knows better than any nation what that means.

It is a subjective question of proportionality, so not a clear war crime.

 

[martin]

Hamas targeted civilians, and avoided engaging soldiers. They dragged a naked German woman through the streets. I could go on and on, but they are clearly over the line, and terrorists.

Hamas has also used their own civilians as human shields. Israel has not done as much as they could to avoid civilian casualties when Hamas uses civilians as human shields. That is maybe, just barely over the line.



It is a subjective question of proportionality, so not a clear war crime.

Don’t drag in the criminals of Hamas for comparison. The bombing of residential areas and resulting death toll of women and children is alone by itself in the analysis.

 

[Walt]

Don’t drag in the criminals of Hamas for comparison.

Hamas is blatantly over the line. Israel is somewhere around the line.

The bombing of residential areas and resulting death toll of women and children is alone by itself in the analysis.

Is there a legitimate military goal in bombing residential areas that Hamas has militarized by stationing forces there? Yes. Is it proportional? Maybe.

In Syria, ISIS put a military base in a hospital. That made it a legitimate target for the Syrian rebels that we supported. The Syrian rebels came up with a support plan for the civilians that saved many civilian lives. This was a ragtag band of rebels, but they did a better job obeying the rules of war than Israel did. They did attack the hospital/military base, and civilians did die.

 

[martin]

Hamas is blatantly over the line. Israel is somewhere around the line.



Is there a legitimate military goal in bombing residential areas that Hamas has militarized by stationing forces there? Yes. Is it proportional? Maybe.

In Syria, ISIS put a military base in a hospital. That made it a legitimate target for the Syrian rebels that we supported. The Syrian rebels came up with a support plan for the civilians that saved many civilian lives. This was a ragtag band of rebels, but they did a better job obeying the rules of war than Israel did. They did attack the hospital/military base, and civilians did die.

The dead kids with their dead mothers in the rubble of Gaza had nothing to do with the Hamas butchery. You might consider the opinions of these Israelis:

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/...ts-must-not-be-silent-on-the-genocide-in-gaza

 

[anonymoose]

'MOSCOW, March 25. /TASS/. After the Crocus City Hall attack, the US tries to bail Ukraine out by mentioning the Islamic State (IS, ISIS, outlawed in Russia) terror group, outlawed in Russia, and to cover itself and the Zelensky regime it created, Russian Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said in an article for kp.ru.

"The American political engineers cornered themselves with their tales that the Crocus City Hall attack was carried out by the ISIS terror group," the diplomat noted. "Hence Washington’s daily bailing out of its wards in Kiev, and the attempt to cover itself and the Zelensky regime they created with the scarecrow of the outlawed ISIS."

Zakharova noted that a number of factors directly and indirectly indicate the US authorities’ involvement in sponsoring the Ukrainian terrorism.

"Billions of dollar and an unprecedented amount of weapons, invested without accountability and with use of corruption schemes into the Kiev regime, the aggressive rhetoric regarding Russia, the rabid nationalism, the ban for peace talks on Ukraine, the endless calls for a force resolution of the conflict, the refusal to condemn the years-long terror attacks, carried out by the Kiev regime, and the massive informational and political support of any, even the most atrocious actions of Zelensky," she listed.

The spokeswoman also noted that previously, the US intervention in Middle Eastern affairs has led to the emergence, strengthening and institutionalization of a number of radical and terrorist groups that remain active in the region even today.'

https://tass.com/world/1765181

It’s already been established that this was a false flag operation by the FSB. By Russians no less.

https://www.justplainpolitics.com/showthread.php?212041-Moscow-attack-was-a-false-flag-operation

 

[martin]

Hamas is blatantly over the line. Israel is somewhere around the line.



Is there a legitimate military goal in bombing residential areas that Hamas has militarized by stationing forces there? Yes. Is it proportional? Maybe.

In Syria, ISIS put a military base in a hospital. That made it a legitimate target for the Syrian rebels that we supported. The Syrian rebels came up with a support plan for the civilians that saved many civilian lives. This was a ragtag band of rebels, but they did a better job obeying the rules of war than Israel did. They did attack the hospital/military base, and civilians did die.

Military goals are legitimate to the extent they address military threats. Hamas is no threat to Israel now. Even on December 7th the threat was largely due to Israeli government negligence.

This "war" is vengeance gone too far.

 

[Walt]

Military goals are legitimate to the extent they address military threats. Hamas is no threat to Israel now. Even on December 7th the threat was largely due to Israeli government negligence.

This "war" is vengeance gone too far.

Technically, it is not about military threat, and certainly not immediate military threat, but about military objective. So a soldier well behind the frontline, is a legitimate target, even though he has no ability to attack.

Hamas is in a war with Israel, which makes anyone in Hamas conducting that war fair game. Israel does not have to start winning the war, realize Hamas is almost defeated, stop, and wait for Hamas to be a threat again.

Put in historical terms, when the allies drove Germany back into their own borders in WWII, Germany ceased to be an immediate threat of invasion of other countries, but the war continued.

Israel has a legal right to try to eliminate Hamas's military from existence. It is not a war crime to do so. Whether it is achievable, or is achievable without committing war crimes is another question.

 

[Walt]

The dead kids with their dead mothers in the rubble of Gaza had nothing to do with the Hamas butchery. You might consider the opinions of these Israelis:

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/...ts-must-not-be-silent-on-the-genocide-in-gaza

It is a war being fought in a city more densely populated than Tokyo or London. That is the entire Gaza Strip is more densely populated than Tokyo or London. Think about that for a while.

There are going to be outrageous civilian casualties, which is why I for one never wanted this war.

And I believe it will get worse. Hamas only wants more suffering. The Palestinian Authority is corrupt and dysfunctional. None of the Arab countries(especially Egypt) want anything to do with governing Gaza. It is a void of government with a huge number of people in it.

I blame Netanyahu, but not in the immediate sense. He worked to weaken the PA, and thought Hamas was basically harmless. He thought Gaza could be a harmless void. Well he was wrong.

I am not happy about it, but I see no solution.

 

[Grokmaster]

The Israeli fascist scum attack hospitals and kill doctors, nurses, patients and babies in incubators.

Ukrainian fascist scum attack music concerts.

Same scum- different flags.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024...on-reported-at-concert-hall-in-russias-moscow

ISIS claimed responsibility.

 

[martin]

Technically, it is not about military threat, and certainly not immediate military threat, but about military objective. So a soldier well behind the frontline, is a legitimate target, even though he has no ability to attack.

Hamas is in a war with Israel, which makes anyone in Hamas conducting that war fair game. Israel does not have to start winning the war, realize Hamas is almost defeated, stop, and wait for Hamas to be a threat again.

Put in historical terms, when the allies drove Germany back into their own borders in WWII, Germany ceased to be an immediate threat of invasion of other countries, but the war continued.

Israel has a legal right to try to eliminate Hamas's military from existence. It is not a war crime to do so. Whether it is achievable, or is achievable without committing war crimes is another question.

The war crimes provisions of the Geneva Conventions did not exist in WWII.

Just as Russia's attacks on apartment buildings in Ukraine have been called war crimes, so have been similar attacks in Gaza by Israel.

Sorry, but your example won't do. The soldier "behind the front line" is "a legitimate target" because he's an active enemy soldier and not a six year old.

 

[Walt]

The war crimes provisions of the Geneva Conventions did not exist in WWII.

Just as Russia's attacks on apartment buildings in Ukraine have been called war crimes, so have been similar attacks in Gaza by Israel.

Sorry, but your example won't do. The soldier "behind the front line" is "a legitimate target" because he's an active enemy soldier and not a six year old.

Hamas is clearly an active enemy, so that makes them a legitimate targets. If they are using civilians as human shields, it gets complex. Not complex about Hamas, they would clearly be committing war crimes. It gets complex about how Israel reacts to that.

 

[moon]

https://tass.com/emergencies/1767427

 

[moon]

https://tass.com/emergencies/1772045