Understanding Christianity - Questions for Christians

S

Stelakh

Are Those My Feet?
I grew up in a dual-faith household. My father was Jewish and my mother was Methodist. As a child I attended both Methodist church services and Jewish temple services. We celebrated both Christian and Jewish holidays.

Our parents, with a great deal of foresight, permitted us to find our own path to faith, and that meant that my twin brother was atheist, my older brother Christian, my sister (my hippie sister who is quite possibly the most giving, honest and decent person I could ever hope to meet) is Pagan, and I identify as Jewish (although I'm a "bad Jew").

One of the reasons I decided that Christianity wasn't for me was, honestly, Christians themselves.

I've read the bible cover-to-cover many times. It has in it hope and love, peace and acceptance, joy and salvation.

And then it has some other things. Magic and sorcery, war and violence, murder and rape, misogyny and bigotry, hatred and vengeance, incest and sex.

Now, the bible in its entirety is supposed to be the word of God - directly given to humans who wrote it down. And it's a done deal. We're not adding new bits here and there (unless you count the myriad books of the bible that the Church of antiquity threw out because they didn't mesh with their views; or the Mormons).

Today, the bible is viewed as "the whole of the thing." So I have some direct questions to ask Christians about their views of the bible.

I want to make it absolutely clear that I am asking these questions in the honest attempt to get my mind around what today's Christianity actually is, versus what I see in my head that it should be based on my own reading of the bible.

I'll break the questions out to make it easier to quote when answering (and no doubt there will be other questions popping up).

Is the bible in fact the hard-coded word of God that must be followed in full?

If the answer to the above question is "Yes," then why is it that only bits and pieces of the bible are followed and not all of the Levitical and Mosaic laws?

Why is it okay to move the Sabbath to Sunday when it's clearly defined as Saturday in the bible?

Does failure to follow all of the Levitical and Mosaic laws of the Old Testament condemn Christians to hell?
 
Much of Christianity has been hijacked (for centuries) for political and financial gain of a small group of individuals.

True and real Christianity can rarely be found in a "Church".

True and real Christianity comes from within oneself and can be shared with a community, but is often corrupted by a structure of greedy people.
 
Stelakh said:
If the answer to the above question is "Yes," then why is it that only bits and pieces of the bible are followed and not all of the Levitical and Mosaic laws?
Click to expand...
apparently you didn't read the part about Jesus fulfilling the Levitical laws.......did you mother explain that to you when you were growing up?.......
 
Jewish law or perhaps lapses in following it presented a risk on your judgement day. Jews are judged on their own merits / failings. Christ offers himself as the recipient of your wages of sin if you accept him as your lord and savior.
You decide your fate.
 
I was raised Christian


I am an atheist


I could never make myself believe any of the religious myths.


Once I had science it was enough for me.



all organized religion is a tool for sociopaths to gain power over others
 
True Christianity is about freeing people, not enslaving or controlling them.

It has been corrupted in an attempt to manage large groups of people into judging non-conformists and being afraid to step outside the societal idea of "moral behavior".
 
Stelakh said:
Is the bible in fact the hard-coded word of God that must be followed in full?
Click to expand...

Yes, I do believe the Bible to be the infallible word of God. It is my guide in how I worship, how I believe the church is to work on the earth and how the church is to be organized. It is also my guide in how I see salvation in my life through the blood of Jesus Christ and what that means to how I should try to live....the latter meaning that I must exhibit self-control in certain areas of my life. There is right and there is wrong behavior and the Bible can show me what that is.

If the answer to the above question is "Yes," then why is it that only bits and pieces of the bible are followed and not all of the Levitical and Mosaic laws?
Click to expand...

I can only answer this for me. Short version: The Mosaic and Levitical codes/laws/ceremonies [as well as the Patriarchal law for the Gentiles] were taken out of the way and made of no effect when Jesus died on the cross. Basically everything before the book of Acts is history. Acts and beyond governs today. With Jesus death He ushered in a new law that included all of mankind. Jesus teaching is undoubtedly used in the new law, hence the importance of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but if you want to know how the church is to work or how to become a Christian or how a Christian is supposed to live...look to Acts and beyond. I will supply scripture to support my position if you desire but am away from my normal computer right now where I have ready access to an online bible.

Why is it okay to move the Sabbath to Sunday when it's clearly defined as Saturday in the bible?
Click to expand...

For the reason mentioned above. It becomes very obvious with a study of the New Testament that the old law with the command to "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross. With Christ's resurrection upon the first day of the week being the crushing blow to Satan that God [bruising his head] told him about in Genesis 3, the first day of the week then became the day that Christ's followers was to observe by the examples in scripture. A couple of passages off the top of my head are Acts 20:7ff and I Cor. 16:1ff.

Does failure to follow all of the Levitical and Mosaic laws of the Old Testament condemn Christians to hell?
Click to expand...

No. See answer to 2nd question. In fact, trying to go back and do that would condemn a person. Look at (pardon me for not having the specific chapters and verses) the books of I Corinthians and Galatians particularly, as well as other places and you see that the former Jews who had been converted to Christianity were trying to bind circumcision on the Gentiles who had been converted to Christianity. Such is condemned as perverting the Gospel of Christ. (Galatians 1-4)
 
leaningright said:
Yes, I do believe the Bible to be the infallible word of God. It is my guide in how I worship, how I believe the church is to work on the earth and how the church is to be organized. It is also my guide in how I see salvation in my life through the blood of Jesus Christ and what that means to how I should try to live....the latter meaning that I must exhibit self-control in certain areas of my life. There is right and there is wrong behavior and the Bible can show me what that is.



I can only answer this for me. Short version: The Mosaic and Levitical codes/laws/ceremonies [as well as the Patriarchal law for the Gentiles] were taken out of the way and made of no effect when Jesus died on the cross. Basically everything before the book of Acts is history. Acts and beyond governs today. With Jesus death He ushered in a new law that included all of mankind. Jesus teaching is undoubtedly used in the new law, hence the importance of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but if you want to know how the church is to work or how to become a Christian or how a Christian is supposed to live...look to Acts and beyond. I will supply scripture to support my position if you desire but am away from my normal computer right now where I have ready access to an online bible.



For the reason mentioned above. It becomes very obvious with a study of the New Testament that the old law with the command to "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy" was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross. With Christ's resurrection upon the first day of the week being the crushing blow to Satan that God [bruising his head] told him about in Genesis 3, the first day of the week then became the day that Christ's followers was to observe by the examples in scripture. A couple of passages off the top of my head are Acts 20:7ff and I Cor. 16:1ff.



No. See answer to 2nd question. In fact, trying to go back and do that would condemn a person. Look at (pardon me for not having the specific chapters and verses) the books of I Corinthians and Galatians particularly, as well as other places and you see that the former Jews who had been converted to Christianity were trying to bind circumcision on the Gentiles who had been converted to Christianity. Such is condemned as perverting the Gospel of Christ. (Galatians 1-4)
Click to expand...

My biggest question upon reading the well reasoned and thought out discussion above is, how do you determine what is the Bible? Is it the King James Version, or one of the multitude of versions before or after KJV?
 
There is something that has always bugged me about the essential dismissal of Levitical and Mosaic law, and that is what Jesus says himself.

In Matthew 5:17, Jesus says:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Click to expand...

He's fulfilling law, but laws don't get fulfilled. They are obeyed, abolished or disobeyed, but they don't get fulfilled. So are we sure he means that the laws are henceforth null and void?

To complicate matters even further, in the next line (Matthew 5:18-20) he says:

18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 - For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Click to expand...

So he says he's not there to destroy the law in 17, then that the law is still valid until heaven and earth pass in 18. In 19, he says that whoever breaks even the tiniest of the Commandments (there were over 600, by the way - the early Church whittled it down to 10) shall be called the "least" in heaven but those who follow the law shall be called "great." Then in 20, ye says that unless you're more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees (taken in the context of the previous statements, I'd interpret that as meaning you follow the laws better than they do), you're not getting into Heaven.

So from this alone it seems that Jesus actually doesn't set aside the Old Testament laws but in fact enforces their validity until Heaven and Earth are dead and gone, even though he "fulfills" the laws somehow.

How does that work?
 
The bad and aweful "bits" you rejected are what you would find in the Hebrew Bible, and what Christians refer to as the Old Testament. Yet you chose the faith of the "bits" you don't like...odd.
 
Stelakh said:
There is something that has always bugged me about the essential dismissal of Levitical and Mosaic law, and that is what Jesus says himself.

In Matthew 5:17, Jesus says:

He's fulfilling law, but laws don't get fulfilled. They are obeyed, abolished or disobeyed, but they don't get fulfilled. So are we sure he means that the laws are henceforth null and void?

To complicate matters even further, in the next line (Matthew 5:18-20) he says:



So he says he's not there to destroy the law in 17, then that the law is still valid until heaven and earth pass in 18. In 19, he says that whoever breaks even the tiniest of the Commandments (there were over 600, by the way - the early Church whittled it down to 10) shall be called the "least" in heaven but those who follow the law shall be called "great." Then in 20, ye says that unless you're more righteous than the scribes and Pharisees (taken in the context of the previous statements, I'd interpret that as meaning you follow the laws better than they do), you're not getting into Heaven.

So from this alone it seems that Jesus actually doesn't set aside the Old Testament laws but in fact enforces their validity until Heaven and Earth are dead and gone, even though he "fulfills" the laws somehow.

How does that work?
Click to expand...

Christ's fulfillment is why Levitical and Ceremonial law, which point to a savior, Christ, can be done away with, as in not needed as a way to God. Christ is the mediator. Mosaic laThe fulfillment is why Leviticus and mosaic law, which poin to a savior, Christ, can be done away with" not needed as a way to God. Christ is THE mediator. Mosaic law is that law which still governs mans life. The OT is as relevant to faith and life as it ever was. But it's illuminated more clearly with Christs coming and victory over sin and death.
 
J Craft said:
Christ's fulfillment is why Levitical and Ceremonial law, which point to a savior, Christ, can be done away with, as in not needed as a way to God. Christ is the mediator. Mosaic laThe fulfillment is why Leviticus and mosaic law, which poin to a savior, Christ, can be done away with" not needed as a way to God. Christ is THE mediator. Mosaic law is that law which still governs mans life. The OT is as relevant to faith and life as it ever was. But it's illuminated more clearly with Christs coming and victory over sin and death.
Click to expand...

But Jesus himself says that both Levitical and Mosaic law are still in full force and effect. I mean, he comes right out and says it is, and that he doesn't intend to change that. Whether it's needed or not, he says it's still there until Heaven and Earth are gone.

How is there a way out of this dichotomy?
 
Stelakh said:
But Jesus himself says that both Levitical and Mosaic law are still in full force and effect. I mean, he comes right out and says it is, and that he doesn't intend to change that. Whether it's needed or not, he says it's still there until Heaven and Earth are gone.

How is there a way out of this dichotomy?
Click to expand...

Christ was the fulfillment as THE priest. For a brief, but concise explanation on what the Christian bible says on the matter.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Levitical-Law.html
 
For further reading.

Question: "What is the difference between the ceremonial law, the moral law, and the judicial law in the Old Testament?"

Answer: The law of God given to Moses is a comprehensive set of guidelines to ensure that the Israelites' behavior reflected their status as God's chosen people. It encompasses moral behavior, their position as a godly example to other nations, and systematic procedures for acknowledging God's holiness and mankind's sinfulness. In an attempt to better understand the purpose of these laws, Jews and Christians categorize them. This has led to the distinction between moral law, ceremonial law, and judicial law.

Moral Law
The moral laws, or mishpatim, relate to justice and judgment and are often translated as "ordinances." Mishpatim are said to be based on God's holy nature. As such, the ordinances are holy, just, and unchanging. Their purpose is to promote the welfare of those who obey. The value of the laws is considered obvious by reason and common sense. The moral law encompasses regulations on justice, respect, and sexual conduct, and includes the Ten Commandments. It also includes penalties for failure to obey the ordinances. Moral law does not point people to Christ; it merely illuminates the fallen state of all mankind.

Modern Protestants are divided over the applicability of mishpatim in the church age. Some believe that Jesus' assertion that the law will remain in effect until the earth passes away (Matthew 5:18) means that believers are still bound to it. Others, however, understand that Jesus fulfilled this requirement (Matthew 5:17), and that we are instead under the law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), which is thought to be "love God and love others" (Matthew 22:36-40). Although many of the moral laws in the Old Testament give excellent examples as to how to love God and love others, and freedom from the law is not license to sin (Romans 6:15), we are not specifically bound by mishpatim.

Ceremonial Law
The ceremonial laws are called hukkim or chuqqah in Hebrew, which literally means “custom of the nation”; the words are often translated as "statutes." These laws are not obvious to common sense; for example, the destruction of perfectly good animals for sacrifice and the rejection of food sources such as pork and rabbit. Instead, these statutes seem to focus the adherent's attention on God. They include instructions on regaining right standing with God (e.g., sacrifices and other ceremonies regarding "uncleanness"), remembrances of God's work in Israel (e.g., feasts and festivals), specific regulations meant to distinguish Israelites from their pagan neighbors (e.g., dietary and clothing restrictions), and signs that point to the coming Messiah (e.g., the Sabbath, circumcision, Passover, and the redemption of the first-born). Some Jews believe that the ceremonial law is not fixed. They hold that, as societies evolve, so do God's expectations of how His followers should relate to Him. This view is not indicated in the Bible.

Christians are not bound by ceremonial law. Since the church is not the nation of Israel, memorial festivals, such as the Feast of Weeks and Passover, do not apply. Galatians 3:23-25 explains that since Jesus has come, Christians are not required to sacrifice or circumcise. There is still debate in Protestant churches over the applicability of the Sabbath. Some say that its inclusion in the Ten Commandments gives it the weight of moral law. Others quote Colossians 2:16-17 and Romans 14:5 to explain that Jesus has fulfilled the Sabbath and become our Sabbath rest. As Romans 14:5 says, "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind." The applicability of the Old Testament law in the life of a Christian has always related to its usefulness in loving God and others. If someone feels observing the Sabbath aids him in this, he is free to observe it.

Judicial/Civil Law
The Westminster Confession adds the category of judicial or civil law. These laws were specifically given for the culture and place of the Israelites and encompass all of the moral law except the Ten Commandments. This includes everything from murder to restitution for a man gored by an ox and the responsibility of the man who dug a pit to rescue his neighbor's trapped donkey (Exodus 21:12-36). Since the Jews saw no difference between their God-ordained morality and their cultural responsibilities, this category is used by Christians far more than by Jewish scholars.

The division of the Jewish law into different categories is a human construct designed to better understand the nature of God and define which laws church-age Christians are still required to follow. Many believe the ceremonial law is not applicable, but we are bound by the Ten Commandments. All the law is useful for instruction (2 Timothy 3:16), and nothing in the Bible indicates that God intended a distinction of categories. Christians are not under the law (Romans 10:4). Jesus fulfilled the law, thus abolishing the difference between Jew and Gentile "so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross…" (Ephesians 2:15-16).
http://www.gotquestions.org/ceremonial-law.html
 
evince said:
I was raised Christian


I am an atheist


I could never make myself believe any of the religious myths.


Once I had science it was enough for me.



all organized religion is a tool for sociopaths to gain power over others
Click to expand...

Desh content with the superiority of her own sociopathy.......
 
Jarod said:
My biggest question upon reading the well reasoned and thought out discussion above is, how do you determine what is the Bible? Is it the King James Version, or one of the multitude of versions before or after KJV?
Click to expand...

there's only one Bible.......the question is whether the translation you are using is accurate........if an inaccuracy is identified, guess what you should do.........

here's an interesting follow up question, Jarod.........if all the translations say a text means the same thing, what do you have left to criticize the Bible with?........
 
Last edited:
Stelakh said:
He's fulfilling law, but laws don't get fulfilled. They are obeyed, abolished or disobeyed, but they don't get fulfilled. So are we sure he means that the laws are henceforth null and void?
Click to expand...

but you are wrong.......the Levitical codes regarding the attainment of righteousness through sacrifice WERE fulfilled.......no further sacrifices are necessary, thus there is no need to become righteous by performing them.........that should be obvious.......
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top