What's wrong with the patriot act?

WRL said:
See it's clear from your framing of the question that you don't understand the fight we're in, we are not in a traditional battle, we are not in a battle against a verb or noun, we are at war with a radical element of Islam that has been breed into the culture of a great part of the middle east, and the only way to defeat that enemy is to change the culture, to change the schools that are raising children this way, the state run media's that re-enforce that thought process, the region has to move towards moderation and we now, through President Bush's actions, have a real chance to see the only possible, or suggested solution to winning the war on terror.
Click to expand...

You're an imperialist Larry, and Empires always fail.
 
Beefy said:
You're an imperialist Larry, and Empires always fail.
Click to expand...

I don't see it that way, I don't want Iraq's oil, or it to be the 51st state, nor a colony, I want peace in the middle east, and I'm a realist to the problem preventing it.
 
WRL said:
I don't see it that way, I don't want Iraq's oil, or it to be the 51st state, nor a colony, I want peace in the middle east, and I'm a realist to the problem preventing it.
Click to expand...

You want to take ownership of other countries and dictate how they should be run, and you want to take their cultures away from them and westernize them. That's imperialism William, and it is a large cause of why we have these enemies to begin with.

If a Muslim Nation were to come to the US to "free us from our bondage and show us the more righteous" way to live in their perception, you'd be pissed also. We're not kings of the world, and its not that big a leap of faith to believe that going over there and blowing their country up is not going to help us in the world theatre, or gain any friends.

Starting wars and occupations tends to piss off the population of those countries, and radicalize its populace. Terrorism is exponentially more rampant in Iraq than ever before our invasion and conquest. If it truly is a "war on terror" we're fighting, terror is winning because we're using it ourselves, over there, against them, in their eyes.

How many more dudes is this clusterfuck worth to you William? 10,000? 50,000? How many? Would it be worth 1,000,000? You tell me.
 
We are not running an empire anymore than we were with the common sense approach we took after WWII that helped Europe to it's feet to fight communism, or helped Asia rise as well, so come on with the hyper bull. I've been to Germany recently and guess what, it's still German, and you know what there hasn't been a war in that blood soaked nation since we took the similar actions we are taking today in the middle east.
 
WRL said:
We are not running an empire anymore than we were with the common sense approach we took after WWII that helped Europe to it's feet to fight communism, or helped Asia rise as well, so come on with the hyper bull. I've been to Germany recently and guess what, it's still German, and you know what there hasn't been a war in that blood soaked nation since we took the similar actions we are taking today in the middle east.
Click to expand...

You've tried to use this Marshall Plan analogy for years and years William, but the diffierences are pretty glaring.

First of all, We won the Iraq War 4 1/2 years ago. We've since been occupying the country, not at war with it. How were things in Europe 4 1/2 years after WWII in 1950? Were there endless suicide bombings? Was the US waterboarding Germans? Were we losing 60 - 100 guys a month out there?

German Culture was also a Western Culture like ours, not some radical religious culture. Nor was Japan a radical religious culture. They were Nations, not religions, thus they could be defeated.

See Larry, you're trying to fight a war against a religion, and you can never win that war, ever, so we'll keep sending cannon fodder over there, and the body bags will keep rolling off the assembly line.

More Americans dead in Iraq than 9-11. More Iraqi dead than American dead in all of WWII.

But the Republican party is certainly glad yo know that somebody is still gleeful that we went, and even more blissfull that it will continue.

Congratulations.

And all the while that shit goes on over there, your beloved "common sense" patriot act has opened the door for enormous executive abuse of our own population in the name of defending ourselves against wars that we brazenly go and start.

If you want a history lesson william, you should look at how wars , shit box forign policy, and entangling alliances lead to more and more death. Europe learned their lesson for the most part. We have not, well, YOU have not.
 
Near as I've been able to tell, the Patriot Act contains the possibilities for 'Big Brother.' I've yet to see any actions that have not been challenged, such as the wiretaps, library requests, etc. With that said, while not an immediate danger, the possibilities are there. Doesn't it have sunset provisions? If so, hasn't Congress for all the complaints, kept it going?
 
Those who claim "If you have nothing to hide, what's the problem" ALSO tend to support The Bush Admin when they refuse to testify pertaining to the firing of DA's for olitical reasons.

Blatant hypocrisy.
 
US Atorney's serve at the pleasure of the President, he could have fired them for a bad tie, so once more, another dim big deal about nothing.
 
WRL said:
US Atorney's serve at the pleasure of the President, he could have fired them for a bad tie, so once more, another dim big deal about nothing.
Click to expand...
you are correct, the US Attorney serves at the pleasure of the president. HOWEVER, if the president fires or threatens to fire the US attorney to affect an investigation or prosecution then the President has committed a crime. In the firing of David Iglesias here in NM, Iglesias alleges that he was fired because he did not step up the prosecution of a local dem politician PRIOR to the 2006 election. According to him he was fired for not prosecuting a crime BEFORE the investigation was done. That would be an offense worthy of impeachment were it true.
 
Update on the neo-cons responce to this thread.


"I know what you mean, crappity smacking idiot's think that they should have some privacy from the government. They don't understand that the government needs to be able to listen in on their phone calls to make sure they are not planning on doing anything bad."


"We get one of these threads a month yet no one ever posts any stories about the Government actually listening to the phone calls of innocent Americans. Why is that?"
 
first of all we're mixing several different legislations together, the Patriot Act doesn't allow all the things mentioned in this thread. And all of the actions taken during war time will 'sunset' with the war. Like they've always done.

Fact remains, these are some of the weakest wartime powers ever taken by a US President, and those who would ignore the increased danger to the American public during a time of war are quite simply naive, and living in a purely philosophical world.


And our actions, our 'Marshall plan' worked across continents, and cultures. Democracy and freedom, knows no cultural, nor religious bounds, to say someone can't learn to be free is ludicrous, you surely can't be saying you don't believe in a man's ability to grasp and enjoy freedom?

Also Iraq has had some of the fewest fatalities of any conflict of this size in the history of warfare, I can point to battles in WWII that took more lives, so trying to paint this as a bloodbath is establishing false pretexts to make your points with.

The fact is this is a cultural war, these people are breed this way through fundamentalists schools, and state run media, it's everyday all day, they have been created, and now we have the ability to change those institution's radicalizing this religion, its not a war against Islam, it's a war against the foundations of radical Islam.
 
WRL said:
first of all we're mixing several different legislations together, the Patriot Act doesn't allow all the things mentioned in this thread. And all of the actions taken during war time will 'sunset' with the war. Like they've always done.

Fact remains, these are some of the weakest wartime powers ever taken by a US President, and those who would ignore the increased danger to the American public during a time of war are quite simply naive, and living in a purely philosophical world.


And our actions, our 'Marshall plan' worked across continents, and cultures. Democracy and freedom, knows no cultural, nor religious bounds, to say someone can't learn to be free is ludicrous, you surely can't be saying you don't believe in a man's ability to grasp and enjoy freedom?

Also Iraq has had some of the fewest fatalities of any conflict of this size in the history of warfare, I can point to battles in WWII that took more lives, so trying to paint this as a bloodbath is establishing false pretexts to make your points with.

The fact is this is a cultural war, these people are breed this way through fundamentalists schools, and state run media, it's everyday all day, they have been created, and now we have the ability to change those institution's radicalizing this religion, its not a war against Islam, it's a war against the foundations of radical Islam.
Click to expand...

I may have missed something, but I do believe you are the first to address my question about sunset. thank you.
 
Well it's passed for a certain number of years. It ran out around a year and a half ago, I'm not sure, but it was renewed.
 
Well the controversial measures will be taken up again in 2010. The basics are now law.
 
As WRL said, this is one of the least bloody wars in history (as far as our side is concerned, anyway).

As for war powers, he is also right. We have none of the martial law of the Civil War, nor do we have the internment camps of the Second World War.
 
gonzojournals said:
As WRL said, this is one of the least bloody wars in history (as far as our side is concerned, anyway).

As for war powers, he is also right. We have none of the martial law of the Civil War, nor do we have the internment camps of the Second World War.
Click to expand...

Thus everything is kosher.

A main difference that you are leaving out about this war is that this war was one that we caused 100%. The Iraq war didn't have to happen, at all, ever. And the hundreds of thousands of dead on their side, will have reprecussions. They will avenge those dead, no matter how much we try to sell them our benevolence.

And the fact that we have less dead is meaningless. Meaningless. The dead are the dead, and the reasons for war are all bullshit. The numbers of dead don't justify a war. If they did, the Germans, Russians, Japanese and Chinese would have had the best reasons for WWII. Sell your bullshit to compost farmers, not to me.
 
Beefy said:
Thus everything is kosher.

A main difference that you are leaving out about this war is that this war was one that we caused 100%. The Iraq war didn't have to happen, at all, ever. And the hundreds of thousands of dead on their side, will have reprecussions. They will avenge those dead, no matter how much we try to sell them our benevolence.

And the fact that we have less dead is meaningless. Meaningless. The dead are the dead, and the reasons for war are all bullshit. The numbers of dead don't justify a war. If they did, the Germans, Russians, Japanese and Chinese would have had the best reasons for WWII. Sell your bullshit to compost farmers, not to me.
Click to expand...

Point to me where I said everything was kosher, por favor. I am as anti-interventionist as the next man, but I was just saying that WRL is right about his facts.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top