When Does Life End?

Well that's a strawman. I could just as easilty said that if the US had struck to the original Roe decision and the right hadn't of pushed beyond that, including Bush, because they would rather see women die rather then permit late term abortions on uviable fetuses that threaten a womans life. It's disgusting.

You're so tied up with your blind hatred of Bush that you revealed your ignorance of the Roe decision as well as the shit that the Libtards have done to it since then.

I suggest that you educate yourself so you stop looking like such a fool. From my earlier post 137 on this same thread:

Point of order, Roe decision:

(a) [Abortions should not be unreasonably restricted in the first trimester] For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician.

(b) [Abortions may be restricted in the second trimester.] For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health.

(c) [Abortions may be banned in the third trimester except where medically necessary.] For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother.
http://supreme.justia.com/us/410/113/case.html#164
 
I don't care what you think. I'm telling you the facts. In some species up to 35% of the eggs fertilized result in residual bodies. That is, the spern penetrates the egg, the DNA is transfered, the female and male DNA fuse together, both cell membranes and nuclear membrans form and a single cell zygote is produced. It is not uncommon for this zygote to show no signs of life, that at this point metabolic proccesses do not begin nor does the zygote divide to produce daughter cells, it has become a residual body. It cannot be considered dead because it was never really alive in the first place. But the process of fertiliation (conception) has occured.

"It is not uncommon for this zygote to show no signs of life, that at this point metabolic proccesses do not begin nor does the zygote divide to produce daughter cells, it has become a residual body. It cannot be considered dead because it was never really alive in the first place. But the process of fertiliation (conception) has occured."

You got it ALMOST right....except for the underlined....
The PROCESS of fertilitation has occurred....BUT
Conception has NOT occurred by definition...

con·cep·tion (kn-spshn)
n.
a. Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; fertilization.

Conception forms a VIABLE ZYGOTE...thus...the beginning of a new life.

A women is pregnant from that moment on
 
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I think the problem is defining conception as fertilization. I was always taught that conception is the time that it implants, not fertilization and that fertilization began pregnancy, else there would be no such thing as a tubal pregnancy. But heck, maybe I'm remembering wrong, it's been a zillion years.
I tend to agree with you. In the biology classroom the term "fertilization" is most often used but they are ussually used synonomously but it would be more technically correct to use conception as a synonym for pregnant.
 
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"It is not uncommon for this zygote to show no signs of life, that at this point metabolic proccesses do not begin nor does the zygote divide to produce daughter cells, it has become a residual body. It cannot be considered dead because it was never really alive in the first place. But the process of fertiliation (conception) has occured."

You got it ALMOST right....except for the underlined....
The PROCESS of fertilitation has occurred....BUT
Conception has NOT occurred by definition...

con·cep·tion (kn-spshn)
n.
a. Formation of a viable zygote by the union of the male sperm and female ovum; fertilization.

Conception forms a VIABLE ZYGOTE...thus...the beginning of a new life.

A women is pregnant from that moment on
That's one definition. I was taught, as Damo was, that conception/pregnancy begins when a viable zygote implants in the uterine wall. You can argue otherwise but it's a moot point. The zygote won't survive for long if this does not occur.

But that's just semantic hair splitting and you can play that game all day long. The fact is, that it is not uncommon for one gamete to combine with another gamete to form a new cell (zygote) which does not live.
 
You're so tied up with your blind hatred of Bush that you revealed your ignorance of the Roe decision as well as the shit that the Libtards have done to it since then.

I suggest that you educate yourself so you stop looking like such a fool. From my earlier post 137 on this same thread:

Point of order, Roe decision:

http://supreme.justia.com/us/410/113/case.html#164
Who gives a shit about Bush? I was just using your illogic to make the exact opposite and equally wrong claim.
 
if no one knew they ever existed then obviously we aren't discussing them in this thread......we are discussing the ones we know about......

by the way I noticed the carefully contrived dodge of saying "died" in your "spontaneously aborted from carrying on the processes of life".....you couldn't even discuss the issue coherently without acknowledging the fact they were alive.....

Let's clear up a few things. Most women are not aware when a cell/conception self-aborts.

Second, there is no dodge. Any discussion of abortion ultimately rests on when a human being comes into existence. Regardless of where the conversation enters the pregnancy it always, always ends up there. So, until folks agree on when a human being comes into existence or what constitutes a human being or if the same "situation" constitutes an human being the people are discussing two different things.

As far as I am concerned not all fertilized cells or conceptions constitute a human being as some of those cells/conceptions can not carry on the processes of life which is necessary to be classified as an organism which, in turn, is necessary for it to be classified a human being.

No dodge there.
 
fertilized cells??
I assume you mean a fertilized egg....A sperm and an egg are not 'missing anything'.....there 'fusion' constitutes fertilization....SEE ABOVE DEFINITION

How do you know they are not missing something? Or do you prefer my saying something malfunctions? Why does something malfunction? Obviously something is wrong.

We know conceptions malfunction because some continue to produce a baby who is born defective. We know that. To categorically say it is impossible for a conception to be missing something or malfunction to the point where no human being comes into existence is illogical especially considering over 50% of conceptions spontaneously abort.

Unless we are to assume conceptions are not meant to produce offspring the only logical conclusion is those conceptions are either missing something or they grossly malfunction. That being the case not all conceptions are human beings.

Again, what is so difficult to follow?
 
How do you know they are not missing something? Or do you prefer my saying something malfunctions? Why does something malfunction? Obviously something is wrong.

We know conceptions malfunction because some continue to produce a baby who is born defective. We know that. To categorically say it is impossible for a conception to be missing something or malfunction to the point where no human being comes into existence is illogical especially considering over 50% of conceptions spontaneously abort.

Unless we are to assume conceptions are not meant to produce offspring the only logical conclusion is those conceptions are either missing something or they grossly malfunction. That being the case not all conceptions are human beings.

Again, what is so difficult to follow?

What's so difficult to follow is, how an organism can be in the state of living and then die, but you somehow conclude it was never living! It's just outrageously preposterous! If the cell was fertilized successfully, a living organism was the product, that is a biological fact that you seem to want to pretend isn't a fact at all! It simply doesn't matter how LONG it survives as a living organism, that will never change the fact that it was in a state of living before it died, and couldn't have died unless it was first living! It's a complete and total contradiction of logic and reasoning, and that is precisely why it is difficult to follow what you keep saying!
 
Regardless of what you think, you and I are dying. It is true! Each day that passes, we come a little closer to death. Humans, from the time they are first conceived into life, begin the process of dying. The 50% of fertilized eggs, which died before 1 hour or 1 minute or even a millisecond, were no different. They simply died earlier than most humans.

Wrong. The fertilized eggs that spontaneously abort were unable to carry on the processes of life. Those of us who are living have carried on the processes of life for years. It's absurd to say a fertilized cell that lived "1 hour or 1 minute or even a millisecond" carried on the processes of life. What could and most likely did happen was it never started carrying on the processes of life. We don't know for sure and that's the whole problem, people saying, unequivocally, that all fertilized cells did carry on the processes of life and are therefore a human being.

They are cheapening what it means to be a human being to the point where we are being compared to a fertilized cell, a cell which we don't know even know was an organism.

Why would people want to cheapen life to such an extent?

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Regardless of what you think, you and I are dying. It is true! Each day that passes, we come a little closer to death. Humans, from the time they are first conceived into life, begin the process of dying. The 50% of fertilized eggs, which died before 1 hour or 1 minute or even a millisecond, were no different. They simply died earlier than most humans. If some organism is alive but in the process of dying, it is still a living organism until it stops living. If the conception (fertilization) was unsuccessful, the organism was never formed and life never occurred, and in that case, are totally irrelevant to this conversation. No one is arguing that a dead cell is a living organism, no one is opposed to a woman aborting a dead cell that failed to become a living organism. If your argument is, dead cells are not living organisms, I agree, but they have absolutely nothing to do with this debate. If the fertilization (conception) was successful, the life process began at that moment, and it doesn't matter when the process ends, it never changes the fact that it was a living human organism, a human life.

You have not made your case, you have not presented a valid point. In fact, you are attempting to defy simple logic and claim that something that was alive and died, was never living, and that is illogically impossible. It is outright denial of the truth, it is an argument to the point of absurd dishonesty it is not even worth the time we've spent discussing it with you. Logic doesn't support this, science doesn't support this, and biology doesn't support this. No one in this thread has even attempted to defend your position, with the exception of Mott, who is an idiot like you. Even Mott will not argue that something lived and died, but was never alive!
 
Second, there is no dodge. Any discussion of abortion ultimately rests on when a human being comes into existence. Regardless of where the conversation enters the pregnancy it always, always ends up there. So, until folks agree on when a human being comes into existence or what constitutes a human being or if the same "situation" constitutes an human being the people are discussing two different things.

yet it remains meaningless to speculate on the events that occur prior to the mother being aware she is pregnant.....instead, at the point in time a woman is to make the decision on abortion, is the fetus a human being?.....it really doesn't matter if it was a human being or not four weeks before she knew it existed......
 
Wrong. The fertilized eggs that spontaneously abort were unable to carry on the processes of life. Those of us who are living have carried on the processes of life for years. It's absurd to say a fertilized cell that lived "1 hour or 1 minute or even a millisecond" carried on the processes of life.

NO IT'S NOT! It's absurd to say that something was living for 1 hour or even 1 millisecond, was NOT living! It is a direct contradiction of logic! You just stated that it WAS living!

What could and most likely did happen was it never started carrying on the processes of life. We don't know for sure and that's the whole problem, people saying, unequivocally, that all fertilized cells did carry on the processes of life and are therefore a human being.

If, for whatever reason, the conception failed to take place, and the organism was never formed, then it was never living. But that is not relevant to this discussion. No one has advocated for rights of dead cells, no one has argued that dead cells are living!

They are cheapening what it means to be a human being to the point where we are being compared to a fertilized cell, a cell which we don't know even know was an organism.

Yes WE do know... YOU don't know... you are a stupid imbicile who is incapable of rational thought, as you so beautifully illustrated in the first quote above!
 
What's so difficult to follow is, how an organism can be in the state of living and then die, but you somehow conclude it was never living! It's just outrageously preposterous! If the cell was fertilized successfully, a living organism was the product, that is a biological fact that you seem to want to pretend isn't a fact at all! It simply doesn't matter how LONG it survives as a living organism, that will never change the fact that it was in a state of living before it died, and couldn't have died unless it was first living! It's a complete and total contradiction of logic and reasoning, and that is precisely why it is difficult to follow what you keep saying!

Did you read msg 362 and 384? Mott gives a good explanation.

You wrote, "If the cell was fertilized successfully, a living organism was the product, that is a biological fact that you seem to want to pretend isn't a fact at all!"

The key words are "if" and "successfully" and that's my point. A lot, possibly over 50%, do not fertilize properly. That means they probably are not organisms. Are they living? Maybe, maybe not. In any case it's illogical to say every fertilized cell is a human being. They can be living but not a human being. Or stated another way parts of them can be living but not enough parts to be considered an organism.

That's my point.
 
yet it remains meaningless to speculate on the events that occur prior to the mother being aware she is pregnant.....instead, at the point in time a woman is to make the decision on abortion, is the fetus a human being?.....it really doesn't matter if it was a human being or not four weeks before she knew it existed......

Of course it matters. That's what the whole abortion discussion boils down to. If one says the fetus is a human being at the time the woman requests an abortion the obvious question is, "When did it become a human being?"
 
NO IT'S NOT! It's absurd to say that something was living for 1 hour or even 1 millisecond, was NOT living! It is a direct contradiction of logic! You just stated that it WAS living!

If, for whatever reason, the conception failed to take place, and the organism was never formed, then it was never living. But that is not relevant to this discussion. No one has advocated for rights of dead cells, no one has argued that dead cells are living!

Yes WE do know... YOU don't know... you are a stupid imbicile who is incapable of rational thought, as you so beautifully illustrated in the first quote above!

Try reading msgs 362 and 384. Mott explains it. If you don't understand now I can't think of anything to add.
 
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