When Does Life End?

[Timshel]

That's BS; because the older a child gets, the stronger and more viable it is.

Using the idea that a zygot isn't viable and is therefore not alive, is a strawman; because we could then take newborns and leave them alone, exposed to the elements for 1 or 2 days, and those that live we can then say they were viable.

I just pointed out to you that we do not do that to those on life support. We do not consider viability to that degree necessary for anybody who is ill. Since the point is that the zygote should be more viable than the brain dead, no one is calling for that amount of viability.

Your point is worthless. I don't argue we should toss grandma into the middle of the woods just because she slips in the bathtub either.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

I just pointed out to you that we do not do that to those on life support. We do not consider viability to that degree necessary for anybody who is ill. Since the point is that the zygote should be more viable than the brain dead, no one is calling for that amount of viability.

Your point is worthless. I don't argue we should toss grandma into the middle of the woods just because she slips in the bathtub either.

I guess your need to bring a different segment of society into this, is just your lame attempt to avoid the issue at hand.

Why don't you address the points that I made; unless you think that leaving a newborn exposed to the elements, would help wean out those that aren't viable.

 

[apple0154]

And sometimes it looks like you're not trying to convince others; but instead are trying to convince yourself.

But then, I can see why you're still trying to convince yourself that your agenda is the correct one.

Whether it's trying to claim something is a viable human being when it self-aborts in hours or days to trying to justify two human beings living in the same body it doesn't take long to conclude neither logic nor common sense is being used. When one attempts to extrapolate such lunacy we end up with either the absurd or highly dangerous.

I don't require convincing.

 

[Timshel]

I guess your need to bring a different segment of society into this, is just your lame attempt to avoid the issue at hand.

The issue is what level of viability is necessary to say someone is truly alive in the human sense.

Why don't you address the points that I made; unless you think that leaving a newborn exposed to the elements, would help wean out those that aren't viable.

I addressed it and then repeated it.

 

[Damocles]

It might continue to develop and it might begin to function in a meaningful way.



That's pretty much what the life begins at conception crowd here are reduced to because they are now defining conception based on viability.

No it isn't. You are doing what you accused me of before and removing the context so you can argue an absurdity. "Of the zygote" changes the point of viability. Basically the definition is if it doesn't create a residual body and starts to grow then conception occurred, and you know that is what they meant.

Either follow your own advice and be honest about the discussion or admit you lost and are reduced to pretending you don't understand in order to believe you have a point.

Or just wholesale jump right into the hypocrite pool.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Whether it's trying to claim something is a viable human being when it self-aborts in hours or days to trying to justify two human beings living in the same body it doesn't take long to conclude neither logic nor common sense is being used. When one attempts to extrapolate such lunacy we end up with either the absurd or highly dangerous.

I don't require convincing.

And you're still trying to justify your narrow view of life and the living.

We all die and at different times.
Not everyone born in 1980 is going to die the same year.

Same question as posed to another:
Since you seem to be stuck on the idea of viabliity; then does that mean you are in favor of exposing new borns to the elements, for 24 hours, to determine the new borns viability??

 

[USFREEDOM911]

The issue is what level of viability is necessary to say someone is truly alive in the human sense.



I addressed it and then repeated it.

1. You seem to be trying to determine the "quality of life", which can only be determined by the one living it.

2. No you didn't. You attempted to spin it off to something else, that you were more comfortable with.

 

[Timshel]

No it isn't. You are doing what you accused me of before and removing the context so you can argue an absurdity. "Of the zygote" changes the point of viability. Basically the definition is if it doesn't create a residual body and starts to grow then conception occurred, and you know that is what they meant.

Either follow your own advice and be honest about the discussion or admit you lost and are reduced to pretending you don't understand in order to believe you have a point.

Or just wholesale jump right into the hypocrite pool.

Then they are simply arguing that viability is reached at an earlier point. That is a ridiculous standard of viability. One we do not apply to the brain dead. You are then arguing that the born must show a higher degree of viability to be considered alive than the unborn. Why such a clearly subjective standard?

 

[Timshel]

1. You seem to be trying to determine the "quality of life", which can only be determined by the one living it.

Neither the brain dead nor the zygote have an ability to assess their quality of life.

2. No you didn't. You attempted to spin it off to something else, that you were more comfortable with.

I certainly did. I am arguing that the same standard be applied to the zygote that is applied to the brain dead. I am not arguing for a higher standard of viability in the zygote or for that matter the born child.

So, your point is stupid and has been addressed.

 

[DamnYankee]

I already stated that I find both positions too extreme.

Which is more extreme?

*crickets chirping*

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Neither the brain dead nor the zygote have an ability to assess their quality of life.

The ability to assess quality of life is NOT how LIFE is defined.

I certainly did. I am arguing that the same standard be applied to the zygote that is applied to the brain dead. I am not arguing for a higher standard of viability in the zygote or for that matter the born child.

So, your point is stupid and has been addressed.

Again, the DIFFERENCE between the brain dead and the zygote is that the brain dead person has NO CHANCE OF EVER RECOVERING BRAIN FUNCTION. If the same could be said of the zygote THEN you might have a point about treating them the SAME.

 

[Timshel]

*crickets chirping*

I don't see the importance of the question. But the zygote is far further from where I would draw the line of viability than is the fetus 1 day before birth. And in case you are going to forget my line is in between.

 

[Damocles]

Then they are simply arguing that viability is reached at an earlier point. That is a ridiculous standard of viability. One we do not apply to the brain dead. You are then arguing that the born must show a higher degree of viability to be considered alive than the unborn. Why such a clearly subjective standard?

Again, they are talking about different stages of development and brought up a definition that even you would understand meant that if the cell begins to grow conception has occurred.

You are either a disingenuous hypocrite, or an accidental one that actually didn't read the definition.

Again, follow your advice and quit dropping context. Hypocrite.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

Neither the brain dead nor the zygote have an ability to assess their quality of life.



I certainly did. I am arguing that the same standard be applied to the zygote that is applied to the brain dead. I am not arguing for a higher standard of viability in the zygote or for that matter the born child.

So, your point is stupid and has been addressed.

1. Care to provide some proof of your opinion?

2. No you didn't.

 

[Timshel]

The ability to assess quality of life is NOT how LIFE is defined.

I did not say it was. She is saying that the assessment should be left to the one "living." We do not do that with the brain dead.

Again, the DIFFERENCE between the brain dead and the zygote is that the brain dead person has NO CHANCE OF EVER RECOVERING BRAIN FUNCTION. If the same could be said of the zygote THEN you might have a point about treating them the SAME.

We do not know that the zygote will ever have brain function or any chance of developing it. Many will never make it to that point. So then you are defining the end of life and therefore life based on some probability of future viability.

It's just getting murkier.

There is another significant difference. The mother has rights while the life support machines do not. If you are arguing against abortion then you are arguing for significant restrictions and requiring the acceptance of risks on a life that has proven viability based on the sufficiently probable.

 

[Timshel]

1. Care to provide some proof of your opinion?
2. No you didn't.

You are clearly being obtuse on both points. I have responded. Either do the same or not, I don't care.

 

[USFREEDOM911]

You are clearly being obtuse on both points. I have responded. Either do the same or not, I don't care.

I can't help the fact that you don't care;but it does seem to be the underlying trait of your arguments, regarding these posts.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

We do not know that the zygote will ever have brain function or any chance of developing it. Many will never make it to that point. So then you are defining the end of life and therefore life based on some probability of future viability.

It's just getting murkier.

There is another significant difference. The mother has rights while the life support machines do not. If you are arguing against abortion then you are arguing for significant restrictions and requiring the acceptance of risks on a life that has proven viability based on the sufficiently probable.

We do know that the vast majority of zygotes will indeed develop brain function. While we cannot be 100% certain which will be the ones who don't, we know that 99%+ will. Compare that to the brain dead on machines. We know that 99.99999999999999% of them will NEVER EVER develop brain functions again. If you cannot see the difference in the two cases then you are either an idiot or are deliberately trying to spin the issue now that you have been shown to be wrong.

As for the rights of the mother... she most certainly has rights. As I have stated many times before, the abortion debate should be on the topic of the mothers rights and the point in time the child is protected by basic human rights. But neither of their RIGHTS has ANYTHING to do with when life begins. Or with your absurd argument trying to compare brain dead people with zygotes. They are NOT the same.

 

[Timshel]

Again, they are talking about different stages of development and brought up a definition that even you would understand meant that if the cell begins to grow conception has occurred.

You are either a disingenuous hypocrite, or an accidental one that actually didn't read the definition.

Again, follow your advice and quit dropping context. Hypocrite.

There was no mention of cell growth, only viability. If that is your standard then you must apply it consistently.

As far as I understand it, we are still discussing the legal context. So what did I drop? If that is just your or others scientific definition then feel free to apply it to whatever research you care to do.

 

[Timshel]

We do know that the vast majority of zygotes will indeed develop brain function. While we cannot be 100% certain which will be the ones who don't, we know that 99%+ will. Compare that to the brain dead on machines. We know that 99.99999999999999% of them will NEVER EVER develop brain functions again. If you cannot see the difference in the two cases then you are either an idiot or are deliberately trying to spin the issue now that you have been shown to be wrong.

That is not even close to true. I believe nearly half will die before implantation, much less brain function.