Why aren’t they demanding that Hamas surrender, instead?

[IBDaMann]

I have some questions for my colleagues who are card-carrying members of Team Israel:

Many of you are demanding that Gaza be turned into one big crater and the Palestinians eradicated, all while you shout "NEVER AGAIN!"

You claim to mourn the loss of innocent life, especially the children, while secretly relishing the idea that non-combatant, Arab/Muslim civilians, who never attacked anybody, need to be excavated from under tons of rubble. You claim that the loss of entire families in Gaza fills you with grief but you keep calling for more indiscriminate air strikes on the civilian population ... on people that never attacked Israel. You claim to support peace but you are clearly not ready to advocate for a cease-fire. Instead, you call for the IDF to mow down Palestinian civilians without there being any military necessity to do so.

And I have some questions for you about why you think you should just keep killing until genocide against the Palestinians has been achieved.

I am struck by the fact that while calls for a cease-fire are summarily ignored, few seem to have any clarity about why, beyond racist HATRED, the IDF just keeps systematically killing Palestinian after Palestinian, like Terminators on Judgement Day. The IDF's record with atrocities is bone-chilling; horrifying instances have been regularly documented since 1967. A Commission of Inquiry was quickly established once Israel "declared war" knowing that Israel doesn't have it within themselves to avoid war crimes.

Why isn't the IDF even offering Hamas the option to surrender? The Palestinian civilians would gladly pressure, or at least strongly suggest, that the terrorists just surrender, seeing as how any civilians who don't are working to get themselves and their families killed. Is the option to surrender not offered because Israel just wants to systematically kill all the Palestinians (who never attack Israel, or anyone else for that matter)?

 

[T. A. Gardner]

Does anyone think that Hamas, if they were to surrender, would simply march in, stack their arms and quietly go to POW camps until they were completely disarmed?

 

[Walt]

Does anyone think that Hamas, if they were to surrender, would simply march in, stack their arms and quietly go to POW camps until they were completely disarmed?

You are correct, but I need to add:
I doubt the IDF would allow many of them to be considered POWs. At the end of the war, you have to start making arrangements to release POWs. If they were allowed to be POWs, they would surrender their weapons, and be back at war in a year or two(with new weapons).

Besides, if Hamas surrendered their weapons, who would occupy Gaza? 2.4 million people need a police force, and this particular 2.4 million need a police force that is armed like an army. If it is taken from the local population, it is basically Hamas. Egypt and the other Arabs definitely want no part of this. It would be a mess for the IDF.

 

[IBDaMann]

Does anyone think that Hamas, if they were to surrender, would simply march in, stack their arms and quietly go to POW camps until they were completely disarmed?

Is anyone going to claim omniscience? How can anyone know what heavy pressure from Palestinians and brokered negotiations can achieve? Several hostages have been released just through brokered negotiations.

Ergo, why doesn't Israel at least offer the opportunity for Hamas to surrender? It would be free, and everyone could see how it plays out. The worst that could happen is that Hamas says "no" and opt to eventually all be killed at the hands of the IDF. The best that could happen is that no more Palestinian civilians need be butchered. It seems to me that only someone who actually wants to butcher all of the Palestinians would be opposed to simply offering the opportunity to surrender.

 

[IBDaMann]

preventing Israel from acting IS the continuation......and its not a thousand years.......the Jews and Palestinians weren't fighting before 1940....

The Israelis and the Palestinians aren't fighting today any more than the Nazis and the Jews were fighting during WWII.

 

[Walt]

preventing Israel from acting IS the continuation......and its not a thousand years.......the Jews and Palestinians weren't fighting before 1940....

The Battle of Tel Hai happened in 1920, a full 20 years before your claim of the first fighting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tel_Hai

Before that, the Ottomans kept the fighting to a low boil. It was more like rioting, and even pogroms, than open warfare. They would play one community against another, and have them burn each others neighborhoods. The British tried to end 1,000 years of slow boil fighting, and instead got open warfare.

Maybe it could be argued everywhere has a bloody history, but Israel has a bloody history.

 

[Walt]

The Israelis and the Palestinians aren't fighting today any more than the Nazis and the Jews were fighting during WWII.

Jews were not fighting against the creation of Germany, in fact, many Jewish Germans were staunch German patriots. And the Nazis murdered them anyway. There are Palestinians who are Israeli citizens, and they are not killed.

There is no equivalence. Jews were not trying to destroy the Germans. That was just a Nazi myth.

 

[Walt]

why doesn't Israel at least offer the opportunity for Hamas to surrender? It would be free, and everyone could see how it plays out.

If Hamas wants to surrender, they must merely drop their weapons, put their hands up, and walk towards Israel. Seriously, Israel would not reject an unconditional surrender. It would be free. I do not know that offer has been verbally made, but it is usually assumed.

The issue is that Hamas would not necessarily be POWs. They killed a lot of civilians, intentionally, and many would be considered terrorist criminals.

The best that could happen is that no more Palestinian civilians need be butchered. It seems to me that only someone who actually wants to butcher all of the Palestinians would be opposed to simply offering the opportunity to surrender.

Hamas wants Palestinians to be butchered. Those that survive will join Hamas to seek revenge. To Hamas, that is the whole point of this exercise.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

The Israelis and the Palestinians aren't fighting today any more than the Nazis and the Jews were fighting during WWII.

are you saying the Jews were fighting the Nazis during WW2?.......

 

[PostmodernProphet]

The Battle of Tel Hai happened in 1920, a full 20 years before your claim of the first fighting.

gosh I guess you're right......1920.....so it really WAS thousands of years ago........(do you ever get tired of looking stupid?)......

 

[Nordberg]

Rockets still coming into Israel

Can you imagine why? Palestinians, who did nothing to cause this are having their people slaughtered and their homes and buildings leveled.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

are you saying the Jews were fighting the Nazis during WW2?.......

There was a Jewish brigade in the Commonwealth / British army serving in the Middle East (N. Africa then Italy) in WW 2.

Many of the soldiers that served in it became the nucleus of the post WW 2 Israeli army.

It should be noted that Palestinians in the region were not so recruited for service.

 

[tigerred59]

I have some questions for my colleagues on the left.

We’ve worked together for years. We’ve had happy hours and coffees, and taken our kids on playdates. We’ve worked to pass bills and elect public servants together. We have marched together, celebrated and mourned together.

We have carefully avoided the subject of Israel, and when we have discussed it, we have set firm boundaries to assure our friendships weren’t destroyed.


Now we can avoid it no longer.

Many of you are demanding a cease-fire. I can understand why.

I too mourn the loss of innocent life, especially the children. The loss of entire families in Gaza fills me with grief. I have supported peace my whole life.

But I am not ready to advocate for a cease-fire. And I have some questions for you about why you think you should.

I am struck by the fact that while calls for a cease-fire are loud, few seem to have any clarity about what conditions a cease-fire should require. Hamas’ record with cease-fires is less than reassuring: Just weeks ago Hamas broke a cease-fire in order to launch a horrific attack on Israeli civilians during a national holiday. Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton recently said that a cease-fire would be a “gift” to Hamas, as they would only use it to rebuild and repair their capacity to launch attacks. And senior Hamas officials have openly said they aim to repeat these terror attacks “over and over” until “Israel is destroyed.”



https://forward.com/opinion/568121/cease-fire-leftists-hamas-israel-war/

I'm still trying to figure out, how in the hell, after all these bombings, they come up with all the Hamass leaders they've killed? Do these terrorist wear arm bands?

 

[PostmodernProphet]

There was a Jewish brigade in the Commonwealth / British army serving in the Middle East (N. Africa then Italy) in WW 2.

Many of the soldiers that served in it became the nucleus of the post WW 2 Israeli army.

It should be noted that Palestinians in the region were not so recruited for service.

they weren't the ones who started the war, obviously........though there may be some fascists here who want to blame them........just like they blame them for the atrocities of Hamas.......

 

[Nordberg]

I'm still trying to figure out, how in the hell, after all these bombings, they come up with all the Hamass leaders they've killed? Do these terrorist wear arm bands?

They can say it without proving it. To some degree, they think it justifies killing a bunch of Palestinians. I doubt the people in Gaza accept that rationalization.

 

[IBDaMann]

Jews were not fighting against the creation of Germany, in fact, many Jewish Germans were staunch German patriots.

Palestinian civilians were not fighting against the creation of Israel, in fact, many Palestinians lived and worked in Israel and were staunch Israeli patriots, having family there.

And the Nazis murdered them anyway.

And the Israelis murdered them anyway.

There are Palestinians who are Israeli citizens, and they are not killed.

There were Jews who were German citizens who were not killed.

There is no equivalence.

There is complete equivalence. They are identical, down to the racist vitriol, the war crimes and the genocide.

Jews were not trying to destroy the Germans.

Palestinian civilians were not trying to destroy Israelis.

That was just a Nazi myth.

That was just an Israeli myth.

Complete equivalence. The equal sign, i.e. "=", is required in this case.

Nazi Israel = Nazi Germany
Walt = Heavy Denial

 

[IBDaMann]

If Hamas wants to surrender, they must merely drop their weapons, put their hands up, and walk towards Israel.

Walt = Heavy Denial.

If Hamas merely drops their weapons, the IDF kills them anyway. The IDF is at war, hunting down Hamas to kill them, not to take them as prisoners. Hamas will not and cannot surrender until that option exists. Hence the question "Why does Israel not offer the option to just surrender?" Answer: Israel wishes to maintain its pretense for exterminating Palestinian civilians who never attacked Israel; the IDF just wants to complete the genocide first.

Seriously, Israel would not reject an unconditional surrender.

Walt = Heavy Denial

Seriously, The IDF will simply execute any Al Qassam soldier who attempts to surrender, and be awarded a medal.

The issue is that Hamas would not necessarily be POWs.

They most certainly would be, if the IDF were to accept surrender. Israel doesn't want to feel obligated to protect Al Qassam in any way, so they will all be immediately executed at first possibility, even if that means firing missiles unannounced into buildings/structures full of Palestinian civilians.

They killed a lot of civilians, intentionally, and many would be considered terrorist criminals.

You're talking about the IDF, right?

Hamas wants Palestinians to be butchered.

Israel wants to butcher the PaleSIMIANS.

Those that survive will join Hamas to seek revenge.

Wouldn't you? How would you respond if the IDF mowed down your entire family and shouted "Israel has a right to defend itself you fucking goy!"?

To Hamas, that is the whole point of this exercise.

To Israel, that was the whole point of "declaring war."

 

[IBDaMann]

are you saying the Jews were fighting the Nazis during WW2?.......

You're not too quick on the uptake, I see.

I'm saying that the Palestinians aren't fighting; they are simply being butchered by the IDF, just as the Jews were simply tossed into ovens, gas chambers and firing trenches.

Watch this video. It happened seven years ago, but it gives a clear picture of the IDF mindset, that they are licensed to kill whomever they wish, even if immobilized, or has surrendered, or if they just don't like the dude. Jump to 01 minute and 46 seconds.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

You're not too quick on the uptake, I see.

brighter than you if you think those are pictures of the Israelis fighting Nazis rather than dying at their hands......

 

[tigerred59]

They can say it without proving it. To some degree, they think it justifies killing a bunch of Palestinians. I doubt the people in Gaza accept that rationalization.

I hope not, because this shit is ridiculous....We just killed 40 innocent women and children, BUT WE GOT A HAMASS TERRORIST TOO.....Never could rationalize that bullshit.