Why do liberals insist on subjective morality being laws?

Grind said:
Again damo, there is a difference between knowing that people CONSIDER an action to be wrong and actually BELIEVING the action to be wrong.
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Once again, this fundamental emotive belief that you pretend is necessary isn't. For subjective morality to have force all one needs is understanding. One understands that action to be wrong, it is unnecessary to "feel" it. That "feeling" is far more subjective... One doesn't have to feel guilt to understand that what they have done is wrong.
 
That guy that shot the abortion DR. in FL thought he was doing the right thing. so did the woman who bashed her kids heads in with rocks.
 
But of course they are "insane" because they don't agree with the same concepts of right and wrong in their society. The existance of insanity negates your argument by itself Damo. And society determines who fits their definition of insane,,,
 
Ahhh, but they both understood that there would be consequences here...

The man went willingly to the death penalty, he was willing to pay the consequence. The woman was judged to be insane and we have already eliminated the insane.

The man also attempted to cover his action, knowing it to be wrong but was caught later.
 
uscitizen said:
But of course they are "insane" because they don't agree with the same concepts of right and wrong in their society. The existance of insanity negates your argument by itself Damo. And society determines who fits their definition of insane,,,
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It too is subjective and based on a larger entity of society. Ignoring the reality of that entity will only bring you into some serious and unexpected consequences...

:D
 
Damocles said:
Ahhh, but they both understood that there would be consequences here...

The man went willingly to the death penalty, he was willing to pay the consequence. The woman was judged to be insane and we have already eliminated the insane.

The man also attempted to cover his action, knowing it to be wrong but was caught later.
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The man had changed the "society" to which he was a member, defining the abortion doctors to be "outsider" and thus okay to murder. Still he knew the reality and understood the reality of society and the subjective moral code he broke, he was willing to take that consequence in order to "serve" this new society he believed himself to be part of.
 
Damocles said:
Ahhh, but they both understood that there would be consequences here...

The man went willingly to the death penalty, he was willing to pay the consequence. The woman was judged to be insane and we have already eliminated the insane.

The man also attempted to cover his action, knowing it to be wrong but was caught later.
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Ahh but the man new there was a law against it and he would be punished if caught. Not the same thing as knowing he did something worong by his standards now is it. Apparently he thought it was right at the time and later but considered himself a martryr for god like the suicide bombers.
they think they are right and mans laws are wrong.

So is it wrong to smoke pot Damo ?
 
uscitizen said:
Ahh but the man new there was a law against it and he would be punished if caught. Not the same thing as knowing he did something worong by his standards now is it. Apparently he thought it was right at the time and later but considered himself a martryr for god like the suicide bombers.
they think they are right and mans laws are wrong.

So is it wrong to smoke pot Damo ?
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It would depend entirely on your subjective belief and the laws of your area. What consequences are you willing to pay to enjoy the substance?

It is the reason that I put "wrong" in quotations, it isn't the more emotive "I feel guilt" it is simply an understanding and anticipation of consequences that show you have that understanding.
 
ok damo congrats on talking about subjective wrongs. Good for fucking you... we all know prisons exist and that society judges each other subjectively. What a breakthrough....

In the end, it still means nothing.

There is a DIFFERENCE between knowing something is CONSIDERED WRONG and BELIEVING it to be WRONG.

I do not buy your lame ass argument that because society says something is wrong that it = wrong.

I don't care about poor people. I don't care if they die miserably. The vast majority in society would disagree with me. Guess what? I dont' feel wrong.. I don't know it's wrong. it's a belief. With individuals you are never going to get any universal consensus. You are wasting your time arguing something that doesn't exist. It's not there - stop trying... it's over.
 
Like if I punched you in the face right now - I know that you wouldn't like it - but I would still be happy, I wouldn't regret it, and wouldn't consider it wrong, just because you didnt' like it.
 
uscitizen said:
There are no universal rights or wrongs. someone somewhere in mankind will disagree on every issue.
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exactly, which is why this argument was over before it began, Because I know I believe certin things to flat out not be wrong regardless of what society at large feels.
 
I am annoyed, I can't stand idiocy. He is trying to argue that we all feel regret or think something is wrong because we fear consequences.... when I am flat out saying that's not the case for me.

I know how I feel - I am the world's greatest expert on my own opinion.

It can't get any more simpler than understanding that there is a difference between knowing that something is considered wrong and believing it to be wrong.
 
Grind said:
Rule Number 1 to piss off Grind:

1) Tell Grind what He believes and how He feels
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Still, this is a chat board, heck I don't even let Dano piss me off on here.
?A couple of posters on FP used to get to me, but no more.
I take Enzyte now and everything is great :D
 
Damocles said:
Once again, you believe universality must be objective and that is incorrect. There are a few moral rules prevalent in every human society.

Not answering the question is not a profundity, it is weakness. When, among society, would it be "right" to do such a thing? As we go along we'll eliminate such items as "The man is a monster who predates children" until we have a simple code that is prevalent in every human society.

Thus stripping it of its facade to its central core... It is what we are working on right now. Cypress found some, can you?

So, with Cannabalism and "others" we find that the "morality" tends to limit itself to an "us them" mentality, as society grows ever "smaller" by communications and speedy travel we find that that includes more daily. Only isolated groups consider it an "us and them"...

However, even in those groups, if they have contact with the outside, we find that they hide and commit the acts rather than openly work their nefarious deeds thus evincing that even among those there is that fundamental inside belief that what they are doing is "wrong"...

Even terrorists wear masks to hide their identities knowing what they are doing is "wrong"..

Lets work with Cypress' Native American example. As we grew in society and learned through communication and because of quick travel we now view those Natives as "us" and believe it was wrong and is wrong to allow such action...

So, now we know the rule pretty much covers "us", So now we need to reword the question...

When would it be okay for somebody considered to be "us" to be murdered in cold blood?
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You're moving the goal posts backwards. "Us" is a subjective term. Not quantifiable.

You've moved the goal posts, and left us with an ever less objective proposition. What is "us".

Iraqis of the same nationality are killing each other. Russians in Stalin's NKVD certainly took great pleasure murdering other russians.

And USC is right: the whole wearing of masks by iraqi militia thing, is because they don't want to be caught. Not because they feel some inner guilt about murdering.
 
Grind said:
I am annoyed, I can't stand idiocy. He is trying to argue that we all feel regret or think something is wrong because we fear consequences.... when I am flat out saying that's not the case for me.

I know how I feel - I am the world's greatest expert on my own opinion.

It can't get any more simpler than understanding that there is a difference between knowing that something is considered wrong and believing it to be wrong.
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This is exactly NOT what I was arguing. I was arguing that the emotion of regret is unnecessary in understanding a "wrong"... I specifically stated so several times along the way.
 
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