Why should peole believe in Conservatism?

You're in denial. I just showed you objective data that it did not work. If it did work why didn't Federal revenues increase from 2001, 2002 and 2003?

Looks like you're the lemming. You can't accept that the facts don't agree with your world view.

No, you did not show 'objective data'. You cherry picked what data you wanted to present. You did not...

1) Include the FACT that the unemployment rate went from 4% in early 2000 to 6.3% in 2002. The recession that began under Clinton did that twit. Remember all the liberal morons shouting about people losing jobs under Bush... yeah.. that was the same time. When people lose jobs at that pace... revenue from those people is also going to be erased (from an income tax perspective).

2) Include the FACT that when the STOCK MARKET corrects, investors have Capital losses they use to offset income.

3) show anything more than a few years of data... yet pretend those cherry picked years demonstrate enough to disprove an economic theory

That said... do tell us what revenues did in subsequent years. Also, Tell us what revenues did from 1982 to 2000....
 
Clinton cut business taxes in 1997. Show your 1990's growth breakdown pre and post this tax cut.
Well how about that. An old blind hog finds an acorn every now and then. Let's keep in mind that Clintons very modest tax cuts in 1997 mainly amounted to a 5% cut in capital gains tax, tax deferals for those investing in retirement or educational accounts and a tax break on the profits from selling ones home for families. Very modest indeed. But still, there was a 5.5% growth in the economy the next year with an increase of 9% in Federal revenue. You finally found a tax break that resulted in increased revenues, though all the others so far have failed.

Having said that, Clinton also raised taxes in 93. In 94 there was 6.2% growth in the economy and Federal Revenuse grew by 9% also. Now according to SSE/Reaganomics. That shouldn't of happened but it did. Why is that?
 
No, you did not show 'objective data'. You cherry picked what data you wanted to present. You did not...

1) Include the FACT that the unemployment rate went from 4% in early 2000 to 6.3% in 2002. The recession that began under Clinton did that twit. Remember all the liberal morons shouting about people losing jobs under Bush... yeah.. that was the same time. When people lose jobs at that pace... revenue from those people is also going to be erased (from an income tax perspective).

2) Include the FACT that when the STOCK MARKET corrects, investors have Capital losses they use to offset income.

3) show anything more than a few years of data... yet pretend those cherry picked years demonstrate enough to disprove an economic theory

That said... do tell us what revenues did in subsequent years. Also, Tell us what revenues did from 1982 to 2000....
Like hell I did. I used the very supply side formula presented by the Heritage Institute to calculate how tax cuts would impact federal revenues and their very own formula shows that it simply does not work.
 
Like hell I did. I used the very supply side formula presented by the Heritage Institute to calculate how tax cuts would impact federal revenues and their very own formula shows that it simply does not work.

lol... what 'formula'?

Did it include the fact that we were in a RECESSION... where UNEMPLOYMENT INCREASED?

You didn't happen to notice that revenue INCREASED from 2003 to 2004... coinciding with when the recession ENDED?

It is NOT a 'cut taxes and no matter what else occurs revenues goes up'...
 
Who said anything about that? Were talking about does Supply Side Economics work. According to the data it does not. Please try to stay on topic.

Your contention is that sse does not work because it doesn't ALWAYS result in more money for the federal government....or am I reading you wrong?

My point is, the sole purpose of sse is NOT to increase the revenue of the government...that is not the measure of its success or failure....

The purpose of sse is to grow the economy, create jobs, control inflation and in general keep the economy on a steady course....neither growing too much or too little etc.....

Your argument is akin to saying a pen doesn't write a novel so its a useless tool....
 
First of all, I didn't say that and second, why do ya'll keep throwing this kanard, as well as, throwing your Messiah Bush under the bus?

Were not talking about the impact of 911. Were talking about "Does supply side ecnomics work?".

And your evidence includes figures that were influenced in large part because of 9/11....can't you grasp that fact? and the fact is, IN SPITE of
9/11, the economy prospered and grew with full employment in country

According to their own definition if tax cuts create growth in the economy we should see a rise in tax revenues. Both economic growth and tax cuts happened in 2001, 2002 and 2003 and revenues declined. If the economy grew after the 911 attacks, which it did by 2.5%, combined with tax cuts and Bush certainly cut taxes for the wealthy, why didn't Federal revenues grow too? Please explain that to me?

Supply side is an economic theory that increased availability of money for investment, achieved through reduction of taxes especially in the higher tax brackets, will increase productivity, economic activity, and income throughout the economic system, along with less regulation to stem growth of business...its not about increasing government revenue.
 
Supply side is an economic theory that increased availability of money for investment, achieved through reduction of taxes especially in the higher tax brackets, will increase productivity, economic activity, and income throughout the economic system, along with less regulation to stem growth of business...its not about increasing government revenue.
Why do you keep evading such a simple question and you keep throwing up 911 which is irrelevent to the discussion as the economy grew over that period but, according to SSE federal revenues should have increased too. Why didn't they?

So far only Damo and Wacko have even tried to explain why SSE failed to do what it predicted would happen.
 
Supply side is an economic theory that increased availability of money for investment, achieved through reduction of taxes especially in the higher tax brackets, will increase productivity, economic activity, and income throughout the economic system, along with less regulation to stem growth of business...its not about increasing government revenue.

So the SUPPLY in "supply side" is the supply of money in "entrepeneurs" hands?
 
This explains in a large part why I rejected the modern conservative movement and decided to become a Democrat.

The modern conservative movement can be broken down into two components.

Social conservatism and Fiscal conservatism.

Social conservatism can easily be rejected for what it is, a blend of religious extremism and racism.

Fiscal conservatism though is founded on the principle of supply side economics. Now I know, this isn't fair to the economist Laffer or the Laffer curve. The modern conservative movement really just co-opted the term to justify their rational for regressive tax cuts. It would be more fair to really call modern conservatives (Isn't that an oxymoron?) fiscal ideology "Reaganomics". However since Republicans have been successful at co-opting this term I'll continue to use it here (why not? conservatives do.).

Here's the problem with supply side economics. It's basic claim has never proven to work. Quite the contrary, the evidence proves that it doesn't work. This also explains why conservatives shrill screams of "socialism" are largely ignored by the general public whenever they get their panties in a wad about government regulations in the market place.

The fundamental principle of supply side economics (Reaganomics) as touted by conservatives think tanks is simple "Lower Tax Rates = More Robust Economy = More Federal Revenue"*

Now on the surface that appears reasonable. The problem for conservatives is that reality doesn't conform with their world view.

Let's look at the data on Federal revenue from the Department of Commerce and the Congressional Budget Office, since this data was compiled mostly under a Republican President with a Republican Congress so clearly this isn't data from the "liberal media". So let's look at data from the last two years of the Clinton administration and W's first term where two tax cuts occurred.

Federal Revenue (billions)**;
1999 - $1,827.5
2000 - $2,025.2
2001 - $1,991.2
2002 - $1,853.2
2003 - $1782.3
2004 - $1880.4

So every year W implemented a tax cut Federal Revenues shrank. "Of course!" I can hear the wingnuts yellings "The Economy shrank!". Well if the Economy didn't shrink in 2001, 2002 and 2003 there going to look pretty stupid aren't they?

US Economy (billions)***

1999 - $9,268.4
2000 - $9,817.0
2001 - $10,128.0
2002 - $10,487.0
2003 - $11,004.0
2004 - $11,728.0

Awww well shoot. It didn't work!

According to the data, after Clinton's modest tax increase, the economy grew by an annual average rate 3.7% and Federal Revenues increased by $850 billion dollars. However during 4 years of Bush's supply side economics (Reaganomics) the economy grew only by an annual average rate of 2.5% and there was a Federal revenue is down $145 billion!!!

So let's see, Clinton implements a modest tax cut, the economy does fine and Federal revenues go up so fast they outpace spending. Bush comes into office with huge regressive tax cuts for the wealthy, the economy grows, but at a slower rate but Federal Revenue declines and he plunges us back into deficit.

So that's about as solid evidence that you need that supply side economics (Reaganomics) doesn't work. That it is a failed economic policy.

So that goes back to the question why should people believe in a political party who's social agenda is based on racism and religious extremism combined with a failed economic policy that only benefits the people who don't need the help in the first place at the expense of the rest of the nation?

Why should people believe in conservatism given these facts?

* The Heritage Institute
** CBO
*** Dept. of Commerce


Who is peole and why should I believe in him?
 
Why do you keep evading such a simple question and you keep throwing up 911 which is irrelevent to the discussion as the economy grew over that period but, according to SSE federal revenues should have increased too. Why didn't they?

So far only Damo and Wacko have even tried to explain why SSE failed to do what it predicted would happen.

9/11 certainly WAS NOT IRRELEVANT to the economic picture of 2001 onward...
As a matter of undesputable fact...9/11 had a profound effect on the economy of that period....
US economy doesn't function in a vacuum you peckerhead...its no wonder you're a Democrat...you're quite ignorant in the sense of the real world...
 
Does anybody remember when Mott used to tell us how he was a Republican that went Democrat because there weren't enough of the small "l" libertarians? Supposedly, he once actually understood economics and was self-described as an economic conservative/social libertarian...

I wonder what happened to that? Are you embarrassed yet?

The attempt to twist statistics to match belief flies in the face of the real results. Revenues did increase, people made more money, even the poor were better off than they were before after his tenure as President.
 
Does anybody remember when Mott used to tell us how he was a Republican that went Democrat because there weren't enough of the small "l" libertarians? Supposedly, he once actually understood economics and was self-described as an economic conservative/social libertarian...

I wonder what happened to that? Are you embarrassed yet?

The attempt to twist statistics to match belief flies in the face of the real results. Revenues did increase, people made more money, even the poor were better off than they were before after his tenure as President.
You're thinking of someone else Damo. I've never claimed to be a Libertarian. I learned my lesson with third parties when I got stupid and voted for Perot and actually I am a fiscal conservative (and a deficit hawk). Just because I believe that SSE has about as much validity as dialectic based socialism doesn't mean I'm not conservative on fiscal matters. In fact if I was to compare my politics to anyone on this board, it would be Topspin. Hardly a libertarian.

Be that as it may, that was a nice try at evading my question. So I'll repeat it again. Using the formula I provided in my first post provided by the Heritage foundation about the fundamental principle of SSE. During those years that taxes were cut and the economy grew, why didn't Federal revenues increase as SSE theory would predict it would?
 
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Be that as it may, that was a nice try at evading my question. So I'll repeat it again. Using the formula I provided in my first post provided by the Heritage foundation about the fundamental principle of SSE. During those years that taxes were cut and the economy grew, why didn't Federal revenues increase as SSE theory would predict it would?

Why bother ? The Heritage Institute is obviously wrong from the getgo...

They start off with an erroneous premise and an erroneous definition of Supply side to build an erroneous scenario which they use to develop an erroneous conclusion...

and you want us to argue about it ? If you accept their nonsense, no one in gonna educate you here....you've already guzzeled the Koolade...

Just accept the standard definition of SSP and learn....
http://www.google.com/search?q=Wiki...greater flexibility by reducing regulation. »
 
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Supply side is an economic theory that increased availability of money for investment, achieved through reduction of taxes especially in the higher tax brackets, will increase productivity, economic activity, and income throughout the economic system, along with less regulation to stem growth of business...its not about increasing government revenue.

Lol! the only problem with supply side theory is that our investment money created jobs in Mexico then China! The multinational industrialists could give a shit about this country and you back them. You guys can argue minutia and deflated govt. unemployment numbers, tax breaks for the rich, or the radical conservative Reaganism ideology, but the simple fact is this country is in this economic situation because of your so called conservative ideology. Your corporate royalists have gamed the system so they can maximize profits while socializing losses which sucks the wealth from the middle class up to Bush's base. Business exists under government rules not the other way around. If you work for a living why would you vote for a political party that wants to take that work away from you? The republicon party has never backed American labor and has tried to keep them poor. People who work for a living and vote Republicon are the true lemmings.
 
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