the war on drugs spills over on to legitimate users

[apple0154]

From the OP

I'm sure she isn't a lowlife. Nor are those in this thread who take pain meds.

However, there is no drug in the world that will cure herniated discs. She needs surgery.

What will ultimately happen, if it hasn't already happened, is her addiction to her meds.

Her back pain will never go away. Nor will her need for it.


Doctors have been overprescribing, and improperly prescribing meds for decades. The multi billion dollar industry assures it.

If you knew how many zombies are roaming the streets around here, taking illegally obtained prescription pills, you'd realize that something has to be done.


'Oxy', was originally meant for end stage cancer patients. Doctors started prescribing it for back pain. A decade later, we have thousands of addicts.

Something needs to be done.

My doctor explained the difference between "addiction" and "physical dependence". For example, people who take high blood pressure medication develop a physical dependence meaning if they stop they will go through withdrawal which will result in their blood pressure spiking. Their body reacts to the stopping of the meds. In the case of Oxy the withdrawal symptoms are quite different, however, the principal is the same. The body reacts.

Addiction is the psychological dependence or, in plain terms, the feeling of getting high. If one takes just enough pain meds to dull the pain they will not develop a psychological dependence (addiction) as they aren't getting high. They're getting "normal". That was one of the reasons I didn't like the "patch". The constant dose of pain medication meant that, at times, the pain would be gone and the "high" effect started taking over. I prefer to adjust my dosage, as necessary. In the end (over a period of weeks/months) my full prescription is used.

Lastly, it's said if a person does become addicted they will require more and more of a drug. I never understood that bizarre logic. Cigarettes are considered to be extremely addictive. Taking into consideration some folks have smoked for 30 or 40 years we would see people smoking a carton a day.

I have to admit I was extremely fortunate to find my doctor. He works with elderly patients so he understands pain. (Come to think of it I suppose I could be considered elderly.

This post certainly didn't end on an upbeat note, did it?

 

[apple0154]

It's not the patients like yourself.

Many doctors write scripts frivolously. One doc around here lost her license, because a large number of O.D. bodies at the morgue had her name as their primary. Shame, cuz she was a dedicated doctor who helped low income families.

She just got crazy w/the pad.

Too many of these pills are making their way onto the streets. You don't do anything crazy, because you have a steady supply, and you use as needed. Pillheads will stop at nothing to acquire drugs. I've had 'friends' steal pills off of my table years ago, when I had knee surgery.

I'm also very careful with my pills. I seldom mention it to others in my vicinity.

 

[Althea]

My doctor explained the difference between "addiction" and "physical dependence". For example, people who take high blood pressure medication develop a physical dependence meaning if they stop they will go through withdrawal which will result in their blood pressure spiking. Their body reacts to the stopping of the meds. In the case of Oxy the withdrawal symptoms are quite different, however, the principal is the same. The body reacts.

Addiction is the psychological dependence or, in plain terms, the feeling of getting high. If one takes just enough pain meds to dull the pain they will not develop a psychological dependence (addiction) as they aren't getting high. They're getting "normal". That was one of the reasons I didn't like the "patch". The constant dose of pain medication meant that, at times, the pain would be gone and the "high" effect started taking over. I prefer to adjust my dosage, as necessary. In the end (over a period of weeks/months) my full prescription is used.

Lastly, it's said if a person does become addicted they will require more and more of a drug. I never understood that bizarre logic. Cigarettes are considered to be extremely addictive. Taking into consideration some folks have smoked for 30 or 40 years we would see people smoking a carton a day.

I have to admit I was extremely fortunate to find my doctor. He works with elderly patients so he understands pain. (Come to think of it I suppose I could be considered elderly.

This post certainly didn't end on an upbeat note, did it?

I understand. And, I don't know what the issue is in your case, but the woman in the OP needs surgery.

Of course, that's a whole other thread about availability of quality care in this country.

There are so many people abusing prescription meds in my area, it's ridiculous. There are cases where some people get a script, but don't like to take the meds unless they absolutely need to. Pillheads have a way of finding these people. Just last week my neighbor had to tell a kid not to come around anymore.

This kid had been very helpful with physical work around the yard that my Vietnam Vet neighbor couldn't handle. As it turns out, the kid was stealing pills every time he asked to go into the house to use the bathroom. My neighbor got a little skeptical, when he noticed that pills were missing. He moved the bottles from the kitchen counter, to his bedroom.

He caught the 'helper' rummaging through the bedroom, after he had asked to use the bathroom.

It's rampant in this country.

Docs are happy to write scripts, and keep the Pharma reps happy. Something needs to be done, as opiates are a dead end street. I don't know what the answer is, and kneejerk reactions after the fact are rarely the right avenue to explore.

 

[apple0154]

I understand. And, I don't know what the issue is in your case, but the woman in the OP needs surgery.

Of course, that's a whole other thread about availability of quality care in this country.

There are so many people abusing prescription meds in my area, it's ridiculous. There are cases where some people get a script, but don't like to take the meds unless they absolutely need to. Pillheads have a way of finding these people. Just last week my neighbor had to tell a kid not to come around anymore.

This kid had been very helpful with physical work around the yard that my Vietnam Vet neighbor couldn't handle. As it turns out, the kid was stealing pills every time he asked to go into the house to use the bathroom. My neighbor got a little skeptical, when he noticed that pills were missing. He moved the bottles from the kitchen counter, to his bedroom.

He caught the 'helper' rummaging through the bedroom, after he had asked to use the bathroom.

It's rampant in this country.

Docs are happy to write scripts, and keep the Pharma reps happy. Something needs to be done, as opiates are a dead end street. I don't know what the answer is, and kneejerk reactions after the fact are rarely the right avenue to explore.

Before I met my current doctor I was given all sorts of tranquillizers. One day the doctor asked how the pain was coming along and I told him I was only in pain two hours a day.

"That's great!", he acknowledged.

"I suppose", I countered, "considering I'm only awake two hours a day!

My pain is due to nerve damage from a fractured spine between the shoulder blades. Apparently we have two sets of muscles, one running north to south and another running east to west. Both sets of muscles were crushed before the roll bar on my jeep finally hit my spine. The doctors think that's where the pain is originating. Fortunately, I wasn't paralyzed.

 

[anatta]

From the OP




I'm sure she isn't a lowlife. Nor are those in this thread who take pain meds.

However, there is no drug in the world that will cure herniated discs. She needs surgery.

What will ultimately happen, if it hasn't already happened, is her addiction to her meds.

Her back pain will never go away. Nor will her need for the meds.


Doctors have been overprescribing, and improperly prescribing meds for decades. The multi billion dollar industry assures it.

If you knew how many zombies are roaming the streets around here, taking illegally obtained prescription pills, you'd realize that something has to be done.'Oxy', was originally meant for end stage cancer patients. Doctors started prescribing it for back pain. A decade later, we have thousands of addicts.

Something needs to be done.

What has to "be done" is not deny patient with legitimate pain, prescriptions.What "has been done " is state data bases that track every pyschotropic or narcotic controlled Rx.
The DEA reviews thru these; looking to shut down Dr's.
Potentaily ANY SINGLE PRESCRIPTON can be audited, and the Dr. has to show a need to the DEA, that is was a legitimate Rx. if audited.

Dr's are getting busted all over the place down here - we had pill mills, but now the chilling effect, of the OVERZEALOUS INVESTIGATORY POWERS of the DEA.
are de facto causing Dr's to withold ANY pain pill without X-Rays. or MRI's. So now a simple sciatia temporary pain is prolly not going to be prescribed.

Sciatica is debilitating, but for most ppl lasts less then a month.
OUTCOME: "Tough luck. We can't MRI it, and I'd like to help you, but quite frankly i don't feel like justifying this to state review." (for lack or documentation.)
All this raises the cost of medical treatment,and treats legitimate pain patients like junkies.

 

[Don Quixote]

What has to "be done" is not deny patient with legitimate pain, prescriptions.What "has been done " is state data bases that track every pyschotropic or narcotic controlled Rx.
The DEA reviews thru these; looking to shut down Dr's.
Potentaily ANY SINGLE PRESCRIPTON can be audited, and the Dr. has to show a need to the DEA, that is was a legitimate Rx. if audited.

Dr's are getting busted all over the place down here - we had pill mills, but now the chilling effect, of the OVERZEALOUS INVESTIGATORY POWERS of the DEA.
are de facto causing Dr's to withold ANY pain pill without X-Rays. or MRI's. So now a simple sciatia temporary pain is prolly not going to be prescribed.

Sciatica is debilitating, but for most ppl lasts less then a month.
OUTCOME: "Tough luck. We can't MRI it, and I'd like to help you, but quite frankly i don't feel like justifying this to state review." (for lack or documentation.)
All this raises the cost of medical treatment,and treats legitimate pain patients like junkies.

my doctor has me scheduled for an mri because of my low back pain - my insurance company refused to allow me to see a chiropractor for the pain

 

[anatta]

my doctor has me scheduled for an mri because of my low back pain - my insurance company refused to allow me to see a chiropractor for the pain

ridiculous. aren't chiroprators now AMA sanctioned ( they used to be thought of quaks).
Chiro's might be able to help, non-invasive, and no drugs, although ususally you do have to go back a few times.

If you can afford it - and you don't have a diagnosis, i'd pay out of pocket and go, althought you might as well get the MRI done, to see if anything shows up that way.

Chiropractors are specialists of the spine and primarily treat neuromusculoskeletal conditions. Many people are not aware, in Oregon, chiropractors can perform minor surgery and some even still deliver babies.

Although the term doctor historically means "teacher" (thus only a PhD is a true doctor in the historical sense), today our world considers a doctor to be anyone who has graduated from a post graduate doctorate program. In Canada and the United States, for example, Chiropractors must have a 4 year undergraduate degree before starting chiropractic school, then they must complete a 4 year, post graduate, doctorate in chiropractic (8 years total). As such, in North America, chiropractors are indeed doctors, doctors of chiropractic

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_chiropractors_doctors#ixzz1yF0GxWDb

 

[Althea]

my doctor has me scheduled for an mri because of my low back pain - my insurance company refused to allow me to see a chiropractor for the pain

And that's what's disgusting about healthcare in this country. There are many alternatives to surgery/pharma, but they aren't 'approved'.

It's a circle, where no money is allowed to go anywhere but round and round. Nothing gets out. The fact that these treatments cure people has no bearing. The fact that they're far less expensive has no bearing.

They aren't approved.

 

[Billy the Great Khan]

It's not the patients like yourself.

Many doctors write scripts frivolously. One doc around here lost her license, because a large number of O.D. bodies at the morgue had her name as their primary. Shame, cuz she was a dedicated doctor who helped low income families.

She just got crazy w/the pad.

Too many of these pills are making their way onto the streets. You don't do anything crazy, because you have a steady supply, and you use as needed. Pillheads will stop at nothing to acquire drugs. I've had 'friends' steal pills off of my table years ago, when I had knee surgery.

Yes, prohibition clearly works, as evidenced by the zero heroin addicts we as a nation have. And if it hurt legitimate users, oh well, we fought the good fight right?

 

[Althea]

Yes, prohibition clearly works, as evidenced by the zero heroin addicts we as a nation have. And if it hurt legitimate users, oh well, we fought the good fight right?

Not sure how prohibition fits into this discussion?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I am screwed here in kY they just passed all kinds of regs on prescription pain medicines.
My dr will no longer be able to prescribe them for me for over 90 days. He can no longer prescribe some of what I take at all.
I am terminal with cancer.
Guess my time to end it is near.

Should do it on the capitol steps though I suppose.

What ever you decide my brother I am with you in spirit.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Are you sure that "pain" isn't just a figment of your imagination?

How about we blow out one of your IVD's and you answer that question for yourself?

 

[Granule]

What ever you decide my brother I am with you in spirit.

.... and in the same tent.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

From the OP




I'm sure she isn't a lowlife. Nor are those in this thread who take pain meds.

However, there is no drug in the world that will cure herniated discs. She needs surgery.

What will ultimately happen, if it hasn't already happened, is her addiction to her meds.

Her back pain will never go away. Nor will her need for the meds.


Doctors have been overprescribing, and improperly prescribing meds for decades. The multi billion dollar industry assures it.

If you knew how many zombies are roaming the streets around here, taking illegally obtained prescription pills, you'd realize that something has to be done.


'Oxy', was originally meant for end stage cancer patients. Doctors started prescribing it for back pain. A decade later, we have thousands of addicts.

Something needs to be done.

MD's created this problem by ignoring more affective holistic approaches to pain management and ignoring educating patients on the importance of maintaining muskuloskeletal integrity. I'm glad to see they are changing their views to a more affective way of preventing and managing muskuloskeletal pain but I'm deeply saddened by how this has impacted people who've become dependent upon these meds.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

my doctor has me scheduled for an mri because of my low back pain - my insurance company refused to allow me to see a chiropractor for the pain

I have the same problem. I suffer from fibromyalgia in my leg and my insurance only covers about 4 visits to my chiropractor annually. It's freaken stupid! The chiropractic works and it will prevent me from having to have far costlier surgery. Fortunately for me my father is a chiropractor.

 

[Althea]

MD's created this problem by ignoring more affective holistic approaches to pain management and ignoring educating patients on the importance of maintaining muskuloskeletal integrity. I'm glad to see they are changing their views to a more affective way of preventing and managing muskuloskeletal pain but I'm deeply saddened by how this has impacted people who've become dependent upon these meds.

I blame the MDs, but maybe not as much as I blame Big Ins./Big Pharma.

The majority of MDs in this country will swear that vitamins do nothing. They'll also swear that chiropractic/acupuncture are nothing more than voodoo.

I liken that to a Ford salesman telling you that Chevy sucks.

But, when people educate themselves about alternatives, and seek them out, the insurance companies put the kabosh on the only treatments that will do any good for a lot of patients.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

ridiculous. aren't chiroprators now AMA sanctioned ( they used to be thought of quaks).
Chiro's might be able to help, non-invasive, and no drugs, although ususally you do have to go back a few times.

If you can afford it - and you don't have a diagnosis, i'd pay out of pocket and go, althought you might as well get the MRI done, to see if anything shows up that way.


Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Are_chiropractors_doctors#ixzz1yF0GxWDb

No. Chiropractors aren't AMA sanctioned because they are not medical doctors nor are they members of the AMA. Chiropractors are recognized by their own professional society, the ACA, and like MD's are licensed by their respective States and they have their own State licensing boards. The AMA was convicted in the 1980's of an illegal primary boycott of the Chiropractic profession. The courts instituted a permanent injunction which ended the AMA's illegal primary boycott of Chiropractors which grealty enhanced the reputation and acceptance of Chiropractors as neuromuskuloskeletal/biomechanical specialist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilk_v._American_Medical_Association

 

[anatta]

No. Chiropractors aren't AMA sanctioned because they are not medical doctors nor are they members of the AMA. Chiropractors are recognized by their own professional society, the ACA, and like MD's are licensed by their respective States and they have their own State licensing boards. The AMA was convicted in the 1980's of an illegal primary boycott of the Chiropractic profession. The courts instituted a permanent injunction which ended the AMA's illegal primary boycott of Chiropractors which grealty enhanced the reputation and acceptance of Chiropractors as neuromuskuloskeletal/biomechanical specialist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilk_v._American_Medical_Association

thanks for the clarification, women are especially subject to fibromyalgia, common drug therapy is Ultram (tramadol 50 mg's) -it's an opiate but does not produce a "mental high" -ideal for bone pain, and tendons. Being an opiate it does have some addictive qualities, but no where near narcotics like hydro/oxycodone.

I think women just have lower bone mass, a "taking more calcium" isn't going to help by itself. It can actually add to inflamaton!!!
I was on Ultram for plantar fasciitis; it was somewhat helpful, but I went to wearing Asics -the kind of tennis shoe, that has those "pods" on the back.

The best medicine is always preventive, and I've been working out like a madman, i've now dropped 100 pounds, down to 240 from my bloated obesity of 340.

I've manged to get off everything, except sleeping pills, there is no substitute for physical fitness.

The problem with the new state data base laws though, is a pain clinic requires an MRI, or X-Ray down here in Florida.
We had "pill mills" -and as I've discussed, we put an end to that, but they are prosecuting a Dr. i used to go to for sciatica, and general problems associated with obesity.
He's a good Dr., but got a "rep" as a pill pusher ( he wouldn't even write refills).
I wrote him offering to testify in his upcoming trail, his atty said thank you, but they prolly won't be calling any patients as witnesses.

Ideally keeping one in good physical shape wards off all KINDS of health problems -but not all Americans are healthy, or willing to manage their own HC.

I got a free clinic, and the only drugs I take now are levothyroxin for hypothyroaid, and Xanax for sleep ( might chage to klonopin).

I am addicted to sleep meds -but so what? I don't abuse them, use them only for sleep.
The clinic said they'll keep giving them to me, as i'm DOCUMENTED with chronic insomnia - but for those poor ppl whom aren't documented
( millions of uninsured) the pay for pill clinics are not happening.

Anyways. I asked the Dr. last time i went to the clinic "what if my plantar fasciitis starts showing painful symptoms again -wil I be able to receive Ultram?
NO. and he minced no words.
"we're under constant scruntinity by the DEA - i can lose my liscense, or at least face a medical board if i cannot document your pain."
It's damn near impossible to document by tests, you just have it.
same with sciatica, almost impossible to "prove" but I've had it, and it's sheer misery. Only pain pills help. Only they're simply not given out anymore.

The DEA is a monster -they;re the one's pushing the current war on medical marijuana ( which Doj caved to).
Everyone worries about some poor schmuck using pills without an absolute air tight case of documentation.
It's actually driving legitimate patient to sek street drugs. How can this be a good policy?

So the pendulum has swung from pill mills, to NO PAIN MEDS - unless you have visable signs of injury.
Fuck that. Pain relief is PART OF MEDICAL PRACTICE,but the DEA - is a monster, and no-one wants to push back.

Not even Obama, not even state gov't, and the Dr's are running scared. Seems we just can't find a middle way in this country -
the extremes are always trying to set their agenda for everyone.

 

[Althea]

thanks for the clarification, women are especially subject to fibromyalgia, common drug therapy is Ultram (tramadol 50 mg's) -it's an opiate but does not produce a "mental high" -ideal for bone pain, and tendons. Being an opiate it does have some addictive qualities, but no where near narcotics like hydro/oxycodone.

I think women just have lower bone mass, a "taking more calcium" isn't going to help by itself. It can actually add to inflamaton!!!
I was on Ultram for plantar fasciitis; it was somewhat helpful, but I went to wearing Asics -the kind of tennis shoe, that has those "pods" on the back.

The best medicine is always preventive, and I've been working out like a madman, i've now dropped 100 pounds, down to 240 from my bloated obesity of 340.

I've manged to get off everything, except sleeping pills, there is no substitute for physical fitness.

The problem with the new state data base laws though, is a pain clinic requires an MRI, or X-Ray down here in Florida.
We had "pill mills" -and as I've discussed, we put an end to that, but they are prosecuting a Dr. i used to go to for sciatica, and general problems associated with obesity.
He's a good Dr., but got a "rep" as a pill pusher ( he wouldn't even write refills).
I wrote him offering to testify in his upcoming trail, his atty said thank you, but they prolly won't be calling any patients as witnesses.

Ideally keeping one in good physical shape wards off all KINDS of health problems -but not all Americans are healthy, or willing to manage their own HC.

I got a free clinic, and the only drugs I take now are levothyroxin for hypothyroaid, and Xanax for sleep ( might chage to klonopin).

I am addicted to sleep meds -but so what? I don't abuse them, use them only for sleep.
The clinic said they'll keep giving them to me, as i'm DOCUMENTED with chronic insomnia - but for those poor ppl whom aren't documented
( millions of uninsured) the pay for pill clinics are not happening.

Anyways. I asked the Dr. last time i went to the clinic "what if my plantar fasciitis starts showing painful symptoms again -wil I be able to receive Ultram?
NO. and he minced no words.
"we're under constant scruntinity by the DEA - i can lose my liscense, or at least face a medical board if i cannot document your pain."
It's damn near impossible to document by tests, you just have it.
same with sciatica, almost impossible to "prove" but I've had it, and it's sheer misery. Only pain pills help. Only they're simply not given out anymore.

The DEA is a monster -they;re the one's pushing the current war on medical marijuana ( which Doj caved to).
Everyone worries about some poor schmuck using pills without an absolute air tight case of documentation.
It's actually driving legitimate patient to sek street drugs. How can this be a good policy?

So the pendulum has swung from pill mills, to NO PAIN MEDS - unless you have visable signs of injury.
Fuck that. Pain relief is PART OF MEDICAL PRACTICE,but the DEA - is a monster, and no-one wants to push back.

Not even Obama, not even state gov't, and the Dr's are running scared. Seems we just can't find a middle way in this country -
the extremes are always trying to set their agenda for everyone.

acupuncture for your sciatica. why would anyone do anything else?

 

[anatta]

acupuncture for your sciatica. why would anyone do anything else?

it's iffy, and EXPENSIVE, and require multiple visits.
How can I pay for that? I can't even afford insurance -why i got the free clinic ( all blessings to those compasionate souls).
Most scaitica just stops - sometime a week, sometimes a couple weeks
so the "quick fix", is just to prescribe. There is nothing wrong with using pain pills for a short duration, that's what they're used for.
If it was chronic, then yes -a more sensible approach would be acupunture - but sciatica is not amanedable to a cure by one visit.
You might get a certain amount of relief, or not -usually requires follow ups -by that time the pain can go away by itself.

The easiest, and most cost efficient way is to write about 2 weeks of hydrocodone -see if it's temporary - voila' your done.
For chronic back pain, then chiropractors, or acupunture can be looked into as holistic.
The problem now is you can't even get a dose for 2 weeks of pain without a bunch of tests - nor can i afford paying $50/$75 a visit to an acupuncturist, over a period of time.

My sciatica is a thing of the past -hopefully stays that way - the Dr .i mentioned, only gave me enough for 3 weeks - i saw him 3 times over the course of 2 years - not what i'd classify as a "pill mill".
Yet the poor guy is facing trail:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...ill-change-of-venue-motion-management-clinics

Orlando doctor accused of running pill mill wants trial's venue changed
Attorneys for an Orlando doctor accused of running a pill-mill argued Wednesday that there's too much publicity on the prescription-drug epidemic in Central Florida for him to get a fair trial.
But a judge said they need to try to pick a jury locally first before selecting a panel from outside the area.

Roman Mosai was arrested two years ago in one of the first large-scale investigations into Central Florida physicians accused of illegally prescribing highly addictive drugs such as painkillers.

Mosai's defense attorney has denied the physician ran a so-called pill mill and said he's being lumped in with other suspected pill-mill operators.

The defense team filed a motion earlier this year requesting a change of venue, arguing there is a "pro-prosecution bias" in local news coverage of the prescription drug problem.

On Wednesday, defense lawyer Amy Tingley argued it will be very difficult to find a fair jury in Orange County.

She and others during the hearing referred to a quote that appeared in the Orlando Sentinel from a top investigator, who referred to Mosai and another arrested doctor as "merchants of death and despair in our community." ( fucking liars -EDIT mine)

Assistant State Attorney Robert Welch told the court it would be more efficient to try to seat a jury in Orange County before traveling to another jurisdiction and bring those jurors to Central Florida.

"It seems foolish to try the most difficult option," Welch said.
Ultimately, Circuit Court Judge Mike Murphy said the attorneys should try to pick a jury in Orange County first.

Prospective jurors will complete a questionnaire crafted by the attorneys that will help gauge their level of potential bias about the prescription drug issue.

Mosai's case is slated to go to trial in August