Fast and Furious scandal: Obama exerts executive privilege; House panel moves forward

But it was also shut down. Obama restarted operation Wide Receiver as operation fast and furious. Under wide receiver, Mexican officials were to keep surveillance of the guns as they crossed and to track them (along with ATF agents in Mexico). It is my understanding that under Fast and Furious, the Mexican authorities were not notified.

Absolutely. Wide Receiver the ATF worked with Mexican authorities and were supposed to track and seize the weapons previous to their use. When it was found that the bad guys knew and avoided the tracking it was shut down immediately by both sides. Fast and furious was nothing at all like this, the Mexican authorities had no knowledge and no attempt was even supposed to be made to track the weapons at all.

Some agents, breaking their orders, put some Radio Schack tracking devices onto some of the guns, but they weren't strong enough and the placement twisted the antenna making them even less affective, however the orders were to just let them have the dang things and we'd find out where they'd been when we found them at crime scenes...

At the point they started to be found at crime scenes we had our illustrious Sec. of State standing with the Mexican President and blaming the lax US laws on the fact that many of the guns found at these murder sites were US weapons. Only later did we find out that it was because the ATF was running a program in at least 7 cities dumping guns into Mexico directly into the hands of some of the worst criminals that exist...

The "plan" was to "find" the guns at "crime scenes"... Can anybody here tell me what kind of crimes drug syndicates in Mexico commit with this kind of weapon? I'll give you a hint, it isn't robbery it starts with an "s" and it ends with "laughter"... The plan was to let them kill people so we could then "track" who had them? That's not a plan, that's criminal negligence at the felony level (and in the US that is felony murder).

When Mexico found out about it they were PISSED, as any nation would be. We armed the very people who were killing their cops, their soldiers, and fighting an all out war with the government and slaughtering citizens not because we thought they'd overthrow and create a better government, not because we thought the Mexican government were tyrants... nope, it appears we did this so that somebody could blame our laws and create more laws to restrict the weapons themselves rather than just ask the ATF to do what they are supposed to rather than exactly opposite of what they are supposed to do...

Now we're at a point where we see the Congress asking for (as I said in an earlier post) a specific universe of documents while the head law enforcement agent gives them lies in letters, blames others, a different set of documents than the ones subpoenaed, retracts his letter because he "accidentally" lied in it, and finally begs and obtains the Presidents blessing to claim executive privilege because finding out they may have asked to wiretap somebody will apparently be a shocking revelation to the criminal community and they'd stop using their phones....

Hundreds murdered, including an agent (armed with a bean bag gun because that's what they have to shoot with first) of one of our own law enforcement agencies.

With all of that happening they have literally tried to tell you that working with Mexico, what Bush did, is the same thing as arming their worst criminals without their knowledge so we can find the guns later at "crime scenes" (slaughters) and that the AG has been only honest and helpful and given them everything yet still needs privilege to hide behind? This isn't supposed to be used in place of the Fifth.
 
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While this issue is important and needs to be investigated, it is apprently not important enough to have been investigated last year, but instead needs an election year.

Yes to Holder resigning.
No to Obama and Bush being tried for war crimes. I don't give a damn about international law, and I'm not aware of any domestic laws they have violated.
 
It is my opinion that both operation are illegal, reckless and obviously ineffective.

It was highly effective. It's just that you refuse to see the goal of the operation. The plan was to be able to blame american guns so the government could justify removal of the right to own guns.

Had the operation not been exposed, Holder would be arguing that we need to end legal gun ownership by citizens.
 
Absolutely. Wide Receiver the ATF worked with Mexican authorities and were supposed to track and seize the weapons previous to their use. When it was found that the bad guys knew and avoided the tracking it was shut down immediately by both sides. Fast and furious was nothing at all like this, the Mexican authorities had no knowledge and no attempt was even supposed to be made to track the weapons at all.

There are claims that we NEVER told Mexico about 'Wide Receiver' being implemented, just general discussion about the plan. That aside, if the corrupt Mexican law enforcement didn't fully cooperate with the U.S during 'W.R', why would we clue them in on 'F and F'?

That is, if you have proof of the claims that Mexico knew about 'W. R.'
 
There are claims that we NEVER told Mexico about 'Wide Receiver' being implemented, just general discussion about the plan. That aside, if the corrupt Mexican law enforcement didn't fully cooperate with the U.S during 'W.R', why would we clue them in on 'F and F'?

That is, if you have proof of the claims that Mexico knew about 'W. R.'

Well, we'd probably "clue them in" because international law requires it.
 
LOL...

Let's see, the committee asks for documents 11 to 100, Holder gives them documents 1 to 7 and a summary of documents 1 to 7 with a letter that he later retracts. Already proven to be lying (letter he retracted claiming it's all somebody else) he now expects the same people he lied to for 10 months before retracting his lie that document 1 to 7 are all they need...

Holder has done everything to distract, distort, avoid, and generally show contempt for the oversight powers of Congress.

The "most transparent administration in history" once again tries to shut down any public knowledge while their sheeple tell us this doesn't matter.

200 people are dead in just the crime scenes we KNOW about, at least 1 of our own agents killed by a thug carrying a weapon somebody in the ATF let them take under orders from somebody up above them... a friendly neighbor nation is quite literally nearly at war with the people we let have these weapons, they aren't amused and their citizens are dying...

This is a big deal. This is not something that needs to be covered like cats in a cat box. This isn't even close to the Wide Receiver project which was in concert with Mexico, not in contempt of Mexico and which was shut down before this AG got into that office. Quite a bit before. This is larger, far more serious, and appears to be done for political purpose. This isn't something we need to "try to get over", this is absolutely something we need to get to the bottom of and uncover the roaches.
Ya'll lack of consistency is sooo grossly hypocritical. Bush invoked executive privelage over issue far, far, far more significant than this six times and not a peep from you folks. Why the double standard, hmm?
 
Ya'll lack of consistency is sooo grossly hypocritical. Bush invoked executive privelage over issue far, far, far more significant than this six times and not a peep from you folks. Why the double standard, hmm?

Tell us... can the executive proclaim executive privilege when Obama is not involved? The answer is no... he cannot. I thought that Obama knew nothing about this... so why the exec privilege? hmmmm?
 
My position at this point is what's the crime? I admit to not following it as closely as some of you.

Um, telling gun shops to sell arms to those known to be taking them across an international border to commit crimes in another country? Not to mention that turned out to be used in the murder of a US ATF agent (at least one... Brian Terry)
 
Um, telling gun shops to sell arms to those known to be taking them across an international border to commit crimes in another country? Not to mention that turned out to be used in the murder of a US ATF agent (at least one... Brian Terry)

I read the Cliff notes version here: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...on-fast-and-furious-11-questions-answers.html

Why does Obama get the blame for the operation? "Following Terry’s death, President Obama ordered the Justice Department’s inspector general to conduct an investigation of Fast and Furious." What about the Phoenix branch of the ATF?
 
Tell us... can the executive proclaim executive privilege when Obama is not involved? The answer is no... he cannot. I thought that Obama knew nothing about this... so why the exec privilege? hmmmm?


Actually, the answer is yes, he can. The deliberative process of Executive branch personnel is protected by the Executive Privilege (at least as asserted by the Executive branch over time). The president need not be involved.
 
I read the Cliff notes version here: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...on-fast-and-furious-11-questions-answers.html

Why does Obama get the blame for the operation? "Following Terry’s death, President Obama ordered the Justice Department’s inspector general to conduct an investigation of Fast and Furious." What about the Phoenix branch of the ATF?

As far as I can tell, Obama should not. I have not seen anything showing he knew about it. But it should go all the way up and down from the Phoenix branch up to Holder.

The only thing that suggests Obama's involvement/knowledge is the use of executive privilege. He can't use it unless the executive office was involved somehow. (at least as far as I know)
 
Actually, the answer is yes, he can. The deliberative process of Executive branch personnel is protected by the Executive Privilege (at least as asserted by the Executive branch over time). The president need not be involved.

Holder is not a part of the Executive branch. So while it could be someone else in the White House Obama is protecting, the information from Holder not directed to the Executive should be made available. yes or no?
 
Holder is not a part of the Executive branch. So while it could be someone else in the White House Obama is protecting, the information from Holder not directed to the Executive should be made available. yes or no?


Yes, Holder is in the Executive branch. If he's isn't in the Executive, what the hell branch do he and the DOJ fall under? Judiciary? Legislative? Those are the only three options.
 
Um, telling gun shops to sell arms to those known to be taking them across an international border to commit crimes in another country? Not to mention that turned out to be used in the murder of a US ATF agent (at least one... Brian Terry)

[h=1]Texas Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst says ballistics tests have confirmed border agent was killed by Fast and Furious weapon[/h]
rulings%2Ftom-false.gif


The same day that U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder spoke at the LBJ presidential library in Austin, Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst of Texas called for Holder's resignation in a post on his campaign website that pointed to the "Fast and Furious scandal" as the "latest evidence that Holder is failing to perform his duties in a competent manner."


The Dec. 13, 2011, post said the federal government's "walking" of guns — into the hands of criminals and across the U.S.-Mexico border — had endangered people in both countries. "Ballistic tests have confirmed that the death of at least one U.S. Border Patrol agent was caused by one of the DOJ-walked weapons," the post says, referring to the U.S. Department of Justice..."

"We reviewed news reports, congressional reports and public testimony, which indicated that two Fast and Furious guns were recovered from the scene of Terry's shooting. However, we found no federal ballistics information confirming that the bullet that killed Terry was fired from one of the guns."

http://www.politifact.com/texas/sta...lt-gov-david-dewhurst-says-ballistics-tests-/
 
[h=1]Texas Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst says ballistics tests have confirmed border agent was killed by Fast and Furious weapon[/h]
rulings%2Ftom-false.gif


The same day that U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder spoke at the LBJ presidential library in Austin, Lt. Gov. David Dewhurst of Texas called for Holder's resignation in a post on his campaign website that pointed to the "Fast and Furious scandal" as the "latest evidence that Holder is failing to perform his duties in a competent manner."


The Dec. 13, 2011, post said the federal government's "walking" of guns — into the hands of criminals and across the U.S.-Mexico border — had endangered people in both countries. "Ballistic tests have confirmed that the death of at least one U.S. Border Patrol agent was caused by one of the DOJ-walked weapons," the post says, referring to the U.S. Department of Justice..."

"We reviewed news reports, congressional reports and public testimony, which indicated that two Fast and Furious guns were recovered from the scene of Terry's shooting. However, we found no federal ballistics information confirming that the bullet that killed Terry was fired from one of the guns."

http://www.politifact.com/texas/sta...lt-gov-david-dewhurst-says-ballistics-tests-/

Thanks, this program sucks, but I have always been interested in the actual facts.
 
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