Egyptian Democracy!

What a deplorable view of foreign policy. America as the bully, forcing other countries to adopt policies & regimes that are favorable to us, against the will of the people.

A far cry from your arguments about "Operation Iraqi Freedom," and a very insightful window to how your mind really works.

As deplorable as Dixies's conclusion may be, they are probably on point with what America's policy will be .. AND, there will be democrats and a democratic president that will agree with Dixie's conclusions because that is the foreign policy that America conducts. The Democratic Party agrees with Dixie although they won't come right out and say it.

That is the truth of who we are. Nobody wants to own it, but that's who we are.
 
As deplorable as Dixies's conclusion may be, they are probably on point with what America's policy will be .. AND, there will be democrats and a democratic president that will agree with Dixie's conclusions because that is the foreign policy that America conducts. The Democratic Party agrees with Dixie although they won't come right out and say it.

That is the truth of who we are. Nobody wants to own it, but that's who we are.

Really?

We just did what Dixie suggested with Egypt?

I didn't realize that.
 
LOL Oh you should listen to the wing nuts howl that they elected an Islamist head of state! LOL

Guess wingnuts don't beleive in Democracy.

While he was democratically elected, lets see how the women in Egypt are treated in the next few years. They have a right to elect whomever they choose. But I think this is the beginning of a long road backwards for women in Egypt.
 
Really?

We just did what Dixie suggested with Egypt?

I didn't realize that.

That's not what I'm suggesting my friend. What I am suggesting is that America's foreign policy is and has always been it's our way or we send in the CIA.

Venezuela has a democracy .. and the elections in Venezuela have far more integrity than American elections. Their elections are internationally monitored, we vote on third-world technology that is easily manipulated. Venezuela has a democracy AND the CIA.

Iran had a democracy when we overthrew its democratically-elected government and installed the Shah.

Being a democracy does not protect nations from our horror show .. especially where Israel is concerned.

History has lots of examples of this truth.

That is who we are.

You think Obama is going to be any different?
 
That's not what I'm suggesting my friend. What I am suggesting is that America's foreign policy is and has always been it's our way or we send in the CIA.

Venezuela has a democracy .. and the elections in Venezuela have far more integrity than American elections. Their elections are internationally monitored, we vote on third-world technology that is easily manipulated. Venezuela has a democracy AND the CIA.

Iran had a democracy when we overthrew its democratically-elected government and installed the Shah.

Being a democracy does not protect nations from our horror show .. especially where Israel is concerned.

History has lots of examples of this truth.

That is who we are.

You think Obama is going to be any different?

He was with Egypt.

You'll get no argument from me that America's policies in the Mideast have been based on interventionism since the '60's, and that has been both parties. I think Obama's foreign policy is deplorable in many ways, and is a reason he has lost my vote.

But we didn't see the above with Egypt.
 
He was with Egypt.

You'll get no argument from me that America's policies in the Mideast have been based on interventionism since the '60's, and that has been both parties. I think Obama's foreign policy is deplorable in many ways, and is a reason he has lost my vote.

But we didn't see the above with Egypt.

You haven't seen it yet because there was nothing we could do to stop what was happening in Egypt. However, should the Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian people choose to form closer ties to Iran, or in any way oppose Israel's God-given right to slaughter the Palestinains at will .. then you'll see what America does to nations that choose self-determination rather than subordination.
 
You haven't seen it yet because there was nothing we could do to stop what was happening in Egypt. However, should the Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian people choose to form closer ties to Iran, or in any way oppose Israel's God-given right to slaughter the Palestinains at will .. then you'll see what America does to nations that choose self-determination rather than subordination.

Well, you're wrong there. We could have stopped it. Easily.
 
That's not what I'm suggesting my friend. What I am suggesting is that America's foreign policy is and has always been it's our way or we send in the CIA.

Venezuela has a democracy .. and the elections in Venezuela have far more integrity than American elections. Their elections are internationally monitored, we vote on third-world technology that is easily manipulated. Venezuela has a democracy AND the CIA.

Iran had a democracy when we overthrew its democratically-elected government and installed the Shah.

Being a democracy does not protect nations from our horror show .. especially where Israel is concerned.

History has lots of examples of this truth.

That is who we are.

You think Obama is going to be any different?

Venezuela has more integrity in its elections? Come on. That stretches imagination to the point of complete absurdity. The extent that Chavez has gone to in order to eliminate dissent is beyond the pale. How can you say it has integrity when he shuts down all media that dare to criticize him? When he consolidates the power of Venezuela into the executive as he has done? Hell, even Chomsky stated as much last year.

Venezuela over the past decade has drifted away from democracy and is heading in the direction of a dictatorship.
 
Venezuela has more integrity in its elections? Come on. That stretches imagination to the point of complete absurdity. The extent that Chavez has gone to in order to eliminate dissent is beyond the pale. How can you say it has integrity when he shuts down all media that dare to criticize him? When he consolidates the power of Venezuela into the executive as he has done? Hell, even Chomsky stated as much last year.

Venezuela over the past decade has drifted away from democracy and is heading in the direction of a dictatorship.

Question: Do you know what a negative vote is? It's one of the ways they manipulate your elections. You do recognize that 80% of the US votes on proprietary software, don't you .. software formerly owned by two brothers .. and whose voting machine companies have been found guilty of fraud in courts of law .. and whose systems have been successfully hacked and PROVEN to be DESIGNED for fraud?

Didn't know that?

The fact that you argue that Venezuela doesn't have more integrity in their elections demonstrates that this is a subject that you have not studied .. no offense intended of course brother.

Additionally, we have never been a friend of Venezuela .. because it is socialist .. thus it puts the human condition before profit .. which is truly anti-american.

Under Chavez, the human condition of the Venezuelan people has improved exponentially.
 
Question: Do you know what a negative vote is? It's one of the ways they manipulate your elections. You do recognize that 80% of the US votes on proprietary software, don't you .. software formerly owned by two brothers .. and whose voting machine companies have been found guilty of fraud in courts of law .. and whose systems have been successfully hacked and PROVEN to be DESIGNED for fraud?

Didn't know that?

The fact that you argue that Venezuela doesn't have more integrity in their elections demonstrates that this is a subject that you have not studied .. no offense intended of course brother.

Additionally, we have never been a friend of Venezuela .. because it is socialist .. thus it puts the human condition before profit .. which is truly anti-american.

Under Chavez, the human condition of the Venezuelan people has improved exponentially.

LMAO... so you ignore the fact that Chavez silences his opponents, shuts down media that criticizes him etc...??? You call that more integrity?

The fact that you ignore what is going on in Venezuela shows that you care more about the fact that he is socialist (which you obviously are biased towards) than what actually happens in Venezuela.

That said, the human condition in Venezuela improved dramatically because oil prices went up from the late 90's until today. That said, it could have been better if not for the price controls of Chavez. It is those price controls that lead to shortages in food and other staples. Venezuela would be booming if under a more capitalistic society vs. socialism.
 
LMAO... so you ignore the fact that Chavez silences his opponents, shuts down media that criticizes him etc...??? You call that more integrity?

The fact that you ignore what is going on in Venezuela shows that you care more about the fact that he is socialist (which you obviously are biased towards) than what actually happens in Venezuela.

That said, the human condition in Venezuela improved dramatically because oil prices went up from the late 90's until today. That said, it could have been better if not for the price controls of Chavez. It is those price controls that lead to shortages in food and other staples. Venezuela would be booming if under a more capitalistic society vs. socialism.
That might have more standing if we didn't support plenty of countries that did the same thing just because they are willing to work with us, given sufficient bribes of course. Venezuela does its thing, and really it's none of our business it's their people and they can sort it out themselves. Thinking we know what's best for everyone is possibly the worst mindset a country can have. We break things then get confused when people get angry.
 
The time to celebrate this will be after the next election. If democracy survives the transfer of power then people in Egypt will be assured that their voices are heard.

However, I find it difficult to "cheer" when the new Administration has already declared peace treaties with their neighbor invalid. Let's see what kind of constitution they end up with as well. People on the left thought elections in Iraq were "bad" because they chose government that was Islamic and put it into their constitution as well (cannot make laws that violate Sharia)...

Are they willing to say that Israel has a right to exist? To draw up new agreements?

I think it is too early to know if this is a good thing as of yet. One election does not a democracy make.
 
The time to celebrate this will be after the next election. If democracy survives the transfer of power then people in Egypt will be assured that their voices are heard.

However, I find it difficult to "cheer" when the new Administration has already declared peace treaties with their neighbor invalid. Let's see what kind of constitution they end up with as well. People on the left thought elections in Iraq were "bad" because they chose government that was Islamic and put it into their constitution as well (cannot make laws that violate Sharia)...

Are they willing to say that Israel has a right to exist? To draw up new agreements?

I think it is too early to know if this is a good thing as of yet. One election does not a democracy make.

No one is saying "look at this perfect democracy now." A first election is a milestone, and any milestone like that can be applauded. I'm not popping the champagne or anything.

What has been more telling for me on this thread are posters who believe 100% in American interventionism, and the idea that if elections don't go how we'd like them to go, we should take more forceful action.
 
No one is saying "look at this perfect democracy now." A first election is a milestone, and any milestone like that can be applauded. I'm not popping the champagne or anything.

What has been more telling for me on this thread are posters who believe 100% in American interventionism, and the idea that if elections don't go how we'd like them to go, we should take more forceful action.
Then we are somewhat in agreement. Too many times in the past I've seen the "democracy" of other nations turn into the dictator propped up by US intervention and/or support for me to suddenly start cheering a "milestone" that seems to be two steps backwards for peace in that region.

The assumption that the US won't become involved if Egypt does take a position against an ally is a bit obtuse, IMO. It may not be good for us at all. Simply having an election doesn't guarantee that a democracy exists, nor does it mean something "good" for the US. Nor bad for that matter, which is why I am waiting to see how it turns out before I "cheer"...
 
That might have more standing if we didn't support plenty of countries that did the same thing just because they are willing to work with us, given sufficient bribes of course. Venezuela does its thing, and really it's none of our business it's their people and they can sort it out themselves. Thinking we know what's best for everyone is possibly the worst mindset a country can have. We break things then get confused when people get angry.

Venezuela has done some wonderful things for its country and South America. It is not perfect, but it I'd trying to do for the poor of South America, I applaud their efforts in this area.
 
Then we are somewhat in agreement. Too many times in the past I've seen the "democracy" of other nations turn into the dictator propped up by US intervention and/or support for me to suddenly start cheering a "milestone" that seems to be two steps backwards for peace in that region.

The assumption that the US won't become involved if Egypt does take a position against an ally is a bit obtuse, IMO. It may not be good for us at all. Simply having an election doesn't guarantee that a democracy exists, nor does it mean something "good" for the US. Nor bad for that matter, which is why I am waiting to see how it turns out before I "cheer"...

I think this article has it about right.

Mustafa Amin writes from Cairo: Well, it had to happen and it did: Mohamed Morsi, who represents the Muslim Brotherhood (MB), has won the run-off presidential election in Egypt, beating Ahmed Shafiq, who was the candidate of the old regime. Morsi has received 51.73 per cent of the vote. But he will only be an interim President, as the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (SCAF) has already made it clear that after a new constitution is drafted new presidential election will take place. The temporary new head of state would not be influential. He won’t be able to nominate the Minister of Defence, of the Interior and have no say over the military budget. So does this mean that the Egyptian Spring is turning into an Egyptian Winter? SCAF is revealing itself to be politically very astute. It has easily outmanoeuvred the Muslim Brotherhood at every turn. The mystery of why the MB put up a candidate for President after claiming noisily that it would not has been solved: it knew two months ago that parliament would be dissolved. So it had to go for the high profile position of President. However, the MB has alienated secular, liberal and left-wing parties. It was arrogant and thought that it did not need to form a coalition or even negotiate with other parties. SCAF knows that the power struggle in Egypt is between the military and the MB. It judges that the moderate face, which the MB is turning to the people, is only tactical. Its long term goal is an Islamic republic with Sharia as the legal system.

MB has lost a lot of support. Last year it would have won a presidential election by a huge margin. Now, half the voters prefer the old order, represented by Shafiq. When SCAF dissolved parliament there were no huge demonstrations. MB has now declared that its supporters will occupy Tahrir Square until SCAF hands over power to a civilian government. This is mere rhetoric. SCAF would prefer MB supporters to foment violence so that they can be arrested. The military now have the power to arrest civilians and try them in military courts. If the MB does not put on a show of defiance, it will lose more and more support.

Egyptian politics is now dominated by three groups: SCAF, the MB and the secularists. The last group was most prominent during the early post-Mubarak days. They stand to gain more influence as the MB loses momentum. SCAF and the secularists share a common aim: preventing the MB introducing an Islamic republic. SCAF will have a major say in the drafting of the new constitution. Its main aim will be to ensure that the MB cannot seize power through the ballot box. The ideal constitution, from the point of view of SCAF, would be to have a government that would be only responsible for the economy, education, culture, social welfare and so on. Defence, international security, the police and foreign affairs would fall within the remit of the military. The military already control about 40 per cent of the economy. So it would become a state within a state. The MB, almost certainly, would play a prominent role in government. The beauty of this situation for the military is that the Brotherhood would be blamed for all the shortcomings of the economy. Public discontent at the level of poverty and lack of job opportunities would be directed at the MB. When public order breaks down, the military would step in and restore order.

Hence Egypt is heading for dual power: the military in the background and the MB in the foreground. Not exactly what the revolutionaries on Tahrir Square hoped for.

http://www.stirringtroubleinternati...-muslim-brotherhood-had-better-not-forget-it/
 
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The time to celebrate this will be after the next election. If democracy survives the transfer of power then people in Egypt will be assured that their voices are heard.

However, I find it difficult to "cheer" when the new Administration has already declared peace treaties with their neighbor invalid. Let's see what kind of constitution they end up with as well. People on the left thought elections in Iraq were "bad" because they chose government that was Islamic and put it into their constitution as well (cannot make laws that violate Sharia)...

Are they willing to say that Israel has a right to exist? To draw up new agreements?

I think it is too early to know if this is a good thing as of yet. One election does not a democracy make.

I dont care if they void agreements or attempt to base law on any religen, as long as it is the will of the people and can be changed when it is no longer the will of the people.

I would care if they did that in the USA because we have a Constitution that prohibits it.
 
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