Bill Moyer on guns in USA

[Canceled.2014.1]

But you suggest what exactly? Be specific stop with the vague generalities and give me specifics. Because the devil is in the details.

If his mother knew he was insane, she may not have been able to do anything if he was over 18. But with proper laws in place, she could have had him committed for psychiatric testing. Laws like this were in place in my lifetime.

Detailed enough?

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

Only if you try to take it from me. Then your ability to procreate will be severely hampered. You I don't believe in handguns for home protection. I believe in something a little more substantial and one that does not require good aim. Do what you can stand puddin

If you are talking about a shotgun, you might want to check the spread pattern for short range use. If you use it inside the house the spread will probably not be more than 2 or 3 inches. So good aim is still required.

 

[canceled.2021.1]

If his mother knew he was insane, she may not have been able to do anything if he was over 18. But with proper laws in place, she could have had him committed for psychiatric testing. Laws like this were in place in my lifetime.

Detailed enough?

Not even close.

 

[wanderingbear]

The N.R.A. wants guns to be legal so that they can go out and play with them while killers use them to create havoc. This world would be a much better place with out guns.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Its nice that you know, and are absolutely sure, that nothing could have been done. This guy obviously has a screw loose. Perhaps, just perhaps, he could have gotten help before it caused the deaths of so many.

Of course I am not talking about screenings for everyone. Don't be daft. But having mental health care available, and affordable, could do plenty to alleviate some of the issues for so many.

I should point out that the assault rifle that the guy had jammed otherwise there would have been a hell of a lot more dead.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Its nice that you know, and are absolutely sure, that nothing could have been done. [nothing could have been done] This guy obviously has a screw loose. [in hindsight, yes] Perhaps, just perhaps, he could have gotten help before it caused the deaths of so many. [but he didn't] Of course I am not talking about screenings for everyone. Don't be daft. [who should we screen?] But having mental health care available, and affordable, could do plenty to alleviate some of the issues for so many. [it is available!]

WB, there is no answer, nothing reasonable could have been done to prevent this. Yes, AFTER someone has mowed down people in a theater, we can logically assume they had a screw loose, the problem is, we didn't know he was going to do this. We have no way of ever knowing that someone is going to do something like this. That's what senseless means, when people call it a "senseless act." At ANY point in time, this person could have picked up the phone, called 9-1-1, and said; "I am thinking about killing people in a theater," and I guarantee you, proper authorities would have investigated, and if the person really wanted to get mental help, they would have been helped. Free of charge, if need be, we already have the laws in place to provide this. The problem is, the guy didn't call, he didn't think he needed mental help.

When the mother was notified she didn't seem surprised. That is a clue that something has been wrong for quite a while.

Wow if the woman wasn't surprised her son just mass murdered people in a theater, maybe she has a screw loose too, maybe there is reasonable cause to have her committed, just because she didn't show surprise, WB... don't you think? Wouldn't most parents be surprised by this? I mean... even like, Charles Manson's parents? What SANE person would hear that news and not be surprised by it? Do you notice the fact that your mind, in the attempt to remain honest, would not allow you to type that she was absolutely not surprised, but "seemed" so? You make a clue out of this from your perception... but think... would ANY SANE PERSON not actually and genuinely be SHOCKED to hear such a thing about their child? So do you have a "clue" to something, or has your mind caused you to create a clue, in order to support what you are thinking is a possible answer?

Something may have indeed been wrong for a long time... you don't need to come up with a reason to believe that. I would say things had not been right for a very long time, because people don't reach that level of insanity overnight. I would say that in any given family, there is at least one or two people, who things have been wrong with for a long time... what does that mean, WB? Most rational people, in spite of what might be wrong with them, what they might be having trouble with, don't do what this person did. That's why we call the act "irrational."

If his mother knew he was insane, she may not have been able to do anything if he was over 18. But with proper laws in place, she could have had him committed for psychiatric testing. Laws like this were in place in my lifetime. Detailed enough?

Well he is 24. So what are you going to do? Should we go back to the old days, when relatives could have each other locked away in asylums if they had them committed? Liberals seemed to have a problem with that and the civil rights implications. Your mind could change about this, if some goody-two-shoes from here were to notify the authorities and report you for being a little off in the head, don't you think? So again... you don't really have an answer. No one KNEW this guy was going to do what he did... and here's the really astounding thing...

Even IF someone KNEW... Let's say he had spoken with his mom that morning, and told her... "I am going to commit mass murder today!" What law has been broken by him? What could he be arrested for? How long could he be held? Would this solely be based on her word that he told her? What if he denied he told her, could they still hold him, if he hadn't broken any laws? You can not detain people who haven't broken the law.

WinterBorn, I like you... just because you are a Bama fan... but let me tell you son, there is nothing that could have been done to prevent this. It was a senseless and irrational act by a person who was obviously (now) mentally unstable. There is no rule or law we could have had, that would have stopped him from doing this, or perhaps something even worse! IF he hadn't been able to obtain a gun, he could have made a bomb! This person was intent on doing something insane, and there is nothing a rational free society can do to prevent that. We can implement reasonable precautions, we can use common sense and stop the PC war on profiling to the extent people CAN do something if they see something odd, but really... even THAT won't PREVENT something like this, it's just going to happen sometimes, and there is no answer or fix. Sorry, that's life.

 

[gui1tars]

There are countless numbers of people, many thousands and maybe millions that are institutionalized or in treatment for all kinds of mental problems. There is no way to tell how many crimes have been prevented due to this psychiatric intervention but you be be assured that the number is enormous. WinterBorn is exactly correct on this issue. To say that nothing could be done in this case or others is daft at best. It's not a matter if you think nothing could be done. We MUST do something and we will. You don't have to like it as many will not. Many others will appreciate the meaning and the newly enacted preventative measures. I know that I will and I will be agitating my part to see new preventative measures are put into law and/or medical practice. Naysayers, as always, be damned.

 

[blackascoal]

Its nice that you know, and are absolutely sure, that nothing could have been done. This guy obviously has a screw loose. Perhaps, just perhaps, he could have gotten help before it caused the deaths of so many.

Of course I am not talking about screenings for everyone. Don't be daft. But having mental health care available, and affordable, could do plenty to alleviate some of the issues for so many.

This guy could have passed every test given to him.

Anything sane would have to address the proliferation of guns in this country. Anything less is cowardly.

The United States has more guns than all the nations of the world. Does that makes us the safest?

Hell no.

The nation that comes in 2nd to the US in the proliferation of guns is YEMEN. And we pale them in comparison.

Let's hear more bullshit about guns and "freedom."

The arguments are mindless, not rooted in the intent of the Constitution, not founded by statistics and data that demonstrates guns make us safer or more free, and it doesn't even make common sense.

It's all about the "me" .. the "I."

How about the "us" .. the "people?"

I know, I'm a socialist.

 

[canceled.2021.1]

If his mother knew he was insane, she may not have been able to do anything if he was over 18. But with proper laws in place, she could have had him committed for psychiatric testing. Laws like this were in place in my lifetime.

Detailed enough?

So the mom thought he was insane? What does she do? Who does she go to? Does she go to the police and say "I think my son is crazy"? What would they do? What happens then? Do they arrest him? For what? Do they search his apartment? So what would be the threshold for having someones apartment searched? Could I just say "Hey, I think that WinterBorn guy is crazy. Someone should give him an evaluation". I understand what you are doing. You are doing what most people do in these types of situations and that is try to make sense of it and think that we can come up with a way to prevent it. You can't. Now, I give you more credit because unlike some, you aren't here trying to dance on their graves to push your agenda

 

[canceled.2021.1]

This guy could have passed every test given to him.

Anything sane would have to address the proliferation of guns in this country. Anything less is cowardly.

The United States has more guns than all the nations of the world. Does that makes us the safest?

Hell no.

The nation that comes in 2nd to the US in the proliferation of guns is YEMEN. And we pale them in comparison.

Let's hear more bullshit about guns and "freedom."

The arguments are mindless, not rooted in the intent of the Constitution, not founded by statistics and data that demonstrates guns make us safer or more free, and it doesn't even make common sense.

It's all about the "me" .. the "I."

How about the "us" .. the "people?"

I know, I'm a socialist.

I suggest you start a Constitutional Convention to make the changes you want. Otherwise. Tough shit

 

[blackascoal]

I should point out that the assault rifle that the guy had jammed otherwise there would have been a hell of a lot more dead.

That's absolutely true .. and another fact ignored.

 

[Howey]

That's absolutely true .. and another fact ignored.

So it was made in the USA?

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

This guy could have passed every test given to him.

Anything sane would have to address the proliferation of guns in this country. Anything less is cowardly.

The United States has more guns than all the nations of the world. Does that makes us the safest?

Hell no.

The nation that comes in 2nd to the US in the proliferation of guns is YEMEN. And we pale them in comparison.

Let's hear more bullshit about guns and "freedom."

The arguments are mindless, not rooted in the intent of the Constitution, not founded by statistics and data that demonstrates guns make us safer or more free, and it doesn't even make common sense.

It's all about the "me" .. the "I."

How about the "us" .. the "people?"

I know, I'm a socialist.

But it is the people and the violent nature of our society that MUST be addressed and held accountable. I understand that guns are not difficult to get. But it is much harder than it was in the 60s or the 50s. Hell, in the 50s you could sign up for a marksmanship program and they would either loan of GIVE you a rifle. And not some cheap piece of garbage, but a Garand that had been a US Military standard rifle.

We have restricted gun ownership (not by huge amounts), and the result has been nothing. We have removed all the public praise for guns and shooting from schools and the popular media. This has happened in my lifetime.

Boyscouts used to get merit badges for marksmanship. Shooting competitions were common entertainment for entire communities as recently as 50 years ago. Schools used to have rifle training and marksmanship competitions.

It is our society that has become dangerous and violent. People will walk away from those in need without looking back. That alone shows a complete disregard for human life. We have become so complacent about people dying that it is now a matter of numbers and body-count. Unless you kill a dozen, you don't even make the news.

The guns are merely a tool. The disease is in our society.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

So the mom thought he was insane? What does she do? Who does she go to? Does she go to the police and say "I think my son is crazy"? What would they do? What happens then? Do they arrest him? For what? Do they search his apartment? So what would be the threshold for having someones apartment searched? Could I just say "Hey, I think that WinterBorn guy is crazy. Someone should give him an evaluation". I understand what you are doing. You are doing what most people do in these types of situations and that is try to make sense of it and think that we can come up with a way to prevent it. You can't. Now, I give you more credit because unlike some, you aren't here trying to dance on their graves to push your agenda

It was not so long ago that you could easily get someone involuntarily committed. At least long enough for an evaluation. And no, it was not just saying "I think WinterBorn is crazy".

But in the 60s there was a huge push to empty the mental institutions and stop protecting the mentally ill. What was once seen as an obligation of society became something to be ignored. That is why so many mentally ill became homeless and ended up in prison.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

So it was made in the USA?

It was an AK, which means it was probably made in China or was a leftover Soviet piece. Had he bought American he would have killed far more. So I am grateful he went the cheap route.

But I do wonder how this guy afforded the gear he had. Lotta dollars in all that, especially for a grad student.

 

[Cancel 2016.11]

It was an AK, which means it was probably made in China or was a leftover Soviet piece. Had he bought American he would have killed far more. So I am grateful he went the cheap route.

But I do wonder how this guy afforded the gear he had. Lotta dollars in all that, especially for a grad student.

If he paid with credit cards there's no mystery. CC companies target college students to get them hooked and deeply in debt early. He would have had no problem getting numerous credit cards and charging this shit. It's not like he was worried about paying it off.

If he paid cash that's something to look into. But since he was ordering off the internet I don't see how that's likely.

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

If he paid with credit cards there's no mystery. CC companies target college students to get them hooked and deeply in debt early. He would have had no problem getting numerous credit cards and charging this shit. It's not like he was worried about paying it off.

If he paid cash that's something to look into. But since he was ordering off the internet I don't see how that's likely.

Thanks, that makes sense. Wow, I actually got an answer on JPP. Who'd a thunk it?

 

[Howey]

It was an AK, which means it was probably made in China or was a leftover Soviet piece. Had he bought American he would have killed far more. So I am grateful he went the cheap route.

But I do wonder how this guy afforded the gear he had. Lotta dollars in all that, especially for a grad student.

Huh. I read somewhere that the American guns weren't held up to the high standards of manufacture as foreign ones.

And are you falling for the conspiracy theory I posted about yesterday? Really?

 

[Canceled.2014.1]

Huh. I read somewhere that the American guns weren't held up to the high standards of manufacture as foreign ones.

And are you falling for the conspiracy theory I posted about yesterday? Really?

As a lifelong gun buff, I can assure you that the american made guns are the equal of anything made anywhere. That is not just pride or patriotism, it is based on years of reading the reviews of firearms from all over. Now, the bulk of my reading about guns has little to do with assault rifles or military weapons. I am a hunter and target shooter, which means I am a fan of a very different sort of gun.

But the AK style rifles are notorious for being produced cheaply and often with shoddy materials. The up side of the AK is that the simplicity of teh design means they can be mass produced cheaply. But too often too many corners were cut.

The AR (the american rifle based on the Stoner design - M16 ect) is a different matter. It is usually more accurate and a higher quality firearm. The tendency of the AR to jam if not kept spotlessly clean (a common complaint in the early years of teh Vietnam War) has largely been taken care of by some minor modifications of the gun.

Yes, if this maniac had carried an AR, there would likely have been a much high number of dead. I have a varmint rifle that is an AR based rifle. it has fired over 700 rounds in a single day at the range, and never had a single jam. And I can depend on it to put the round on target (within an inch to two inches, depending on range, wind ect) out to 300+ yards every time.

 

[blackascoal]

But it is the people and the violent nature of our society that MUST be addressed and held accountable. I understand that guns are not difficult to get. But it is much harder than it was in the 60s or the 50s. Hell, in the 50s you could sign up for a marksmanship program and they would either loan of GIVE you a rifle. And not some cheap piece of garbage, but a Garand that had been a US Military standard rifle.

We have restricted gun ownership (not by huge amounts), and the result has been nothing. We have removed all the public praise for guns and shooting from schools and the popular media. This has happened in my lifetime.

Boyscouts used to get merit badges for marksmanship. Shooting competitions were common entertainment for entire communities as recently as 50 years ago. Schools used to have rifle training and marksmanship competitions.

It is our society that has become dangerous and violent. People will walk away from those in need without looking back. That alone shows a complete disregard for human life. We have become so complacent about people dying that it is now a matter of numbers and body-count. Unless you kill a dozen, you don't even make the news.

The guns are merely a tool. The disease is in our society.

We have more guns in this society than most nations combined.

There is a direct co-orelation to a society inundated with guns and a society inundated with gun violence.

And, I might add, guns and violence are glorified far greater than in the past. Far beyond Buy Scout shooting competitions.

Either we find the courage to do something about guns, or we resign ourselves to becoming accustomed to the slaughter we just witnessed.

Resign ourselves to being incapable of governing a civil nation.