Pagan Roots? 5 Surprising Facts About Christmas

cannabis said:
where did i say it was well documented or an accepted part of history.

saying they are your assertions has nothing to do with making it personal. you did in fact make assertions on your own as did i. we both cited others, generally, for authority.

i really don't see why you're getting emotional over this. you're being oversensitive.
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Not emotional at all.

Again, the "evidence" for the existence of Christ is lacking. There are no contemporary or eye witness accounts. You have the claims of the early church recorded more years after his death then he supposedly lived and a reference to the early church by Josephus, a man that was not even alive at the same time as Christ, which is contested by a significant number of historians.

I tend to think he likely existed, but it is also quite likely he is a composite of messianic figures.
 
Sparta said:
The fact Jesus wasn't born on the 25th isn't a big deal. When your family takes you out on a Friday for your birthday, that doesn't mean you were born on Friday. That's just when they all get together and celebrate it
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it's more note worthy just because so many christians DO believe it's his birthday when really it is just one of many examples of the christian religion folding things into it that already belonged to other religions/cultures/customs long before christianity came along.

I know to you or I it's just a random fact, but to the people that believe whatever their priest tells them, learning that one of their most holy days was just the result of borrowing from other religions can be rather eye opening and make them question what else they might believe is true and unique and holy that was also just conveniently folded into their religion (hint: it's a lot of stuff)
 
The Kicker of Elves said:
it's more note worthy just because so many christians DO believe it's his birthday when really it is just one of many examples of the christian religion folding things into it that already belonged to other religions/cultures/customs long before christianity came along.

I know to you or I it's just a random fact, but to the people that believe whatever their priest tells them, learning that one of their most holy days was just the result of borrowing from other religions can be rather eye opening and make them question what else they might believe is true and unique and holy that was also just conveniently folded into their religion (hint: it's a lot of stuff)
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the winter solstice was used as a birthday for a variety of gods

fyi 25 dec was the date of the winter solstice per the julian calendar - things shifted when the gregorian calendar was adopted

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar

try this one - happy birth day mithra...also, check out zoroaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster

http://www.justplainpolitics.com/sh...oots-5-Surprising-Facts-About-Christmas/page9

In 313 A.D., Emperor Constantine declared December 25th to be the birthday of Jesus (December 25th was prescribed earlier as the birthday of Mithra, by emperor Aurelian). Sabbath day, which is literally Saturday (as the Jews still maintain), became Sunday as it was the day of the Sun, another element from the Mithra worship.

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“It may be mentioned here that the Greeks celebrated the birthday of their sun-god Apollo at the winter solstice. Another important point is the fact that the Christian Church abandoned the Jewish sabbath (contrary to the commandment of their God) in favour of the Mithraic day of the sun.
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I Love America said:
I am not the one who uttered the words "I hate you" to someone on this board. You did that. Me thinks you project too much. Look, here is a tip sweetie. While you are sitting alone in your chair surrounded by your cats, look out your window and look at all of the wonders God has bestowed upon us. Then fall to bended knee and ask for forgiveness. Ours is a loving and forgiving God. I will pray for you tonight at Church.
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dear brain closed shut idiot.

I said I hate you right now.

go check what I said.

You too unimportant to hate all the time.


I said this because your a racist fucking fool and scramble arround this site trying to prove how horrible phoney christians are.

You are the one who chose your religion.

YOU are supposed to live up to its tennets idiot.


I did not chose to bepart of your myth filled fantasy religion.



You sound nothing like jesus and have no idea what that great philosopher stood for.

Your every word screams that fact.
 
evince said:
dear brain closed shut idiot.

I said I hate you right now.

go check what I said.

You too unimportant to hate all the time.


I said this because your a racist fucking fool and scramble arround this site trying to prove how horrible phoney christians are.

You are the one who chose your religion.

YOU are supposed to live up to its tennets idiot.


I did not chose to bepart of your myth filled fantasy religion.



You sound nothing like jesus and have no idea what that great philosopher stood for.

Your every word screams that fact.
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Dear semen receptacle

I really don't give two shits whether you come or go let alone what you think of me. You are whale shit
 
PostmodernProphet said:
lol.....actually, that is the point.....you seem to think derailing it is going toward it.....
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No, it was never the point. The rituals that many Christians associate with Christmas originated with pagans, not Christians. That was the point. You are attempting to derail the conversation and make it appear that yurt claim that the mass was pagan or by pretending that is the entirety of what most Christians associate with the holiday.

Your argument lacks any attempt at truth or honesty, which is quite common for Christian apologists who are all pissy about the fate of their dying creed.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
dude, you're simply supposed to make your choice......
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Okay, then now you are back to bac's claim that it's just as good as believing in Santa Claus (which I don't completely agree with). You just simply choose what you want to believe, dude.

It is not simply a matter of faith. Good history is supported with evidence of multiple verified and, hopefully, contemporary sources. The only proof of Christ are the claims of the early Christian church a lifetime after he supposedly lived. It is not very good proof of his existence. It's a little more than Santa Claus, but there is no reason to pretend as if it is an unquestioned and established fact.
 
SuperstringTheory said:
Not emotional at all.

Again, the "evidence" for the existence of Christ is lacking. There are no contemporary or eye witness accounts. You have the claims of the early church recorded more years after his death then he supposedly lived and a reference to the early church by Josephus, a man that was not even alive at the same time as Christ, which is contested by a significant number of historians.

I tend to think he likely existed, but it is also quite likely he is a composite of messianic figures.
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i agree that the evidence for his existence is not solid. hence, why faith is a large part of the relationship with god. i've often wondered why faith, why not simply provide proof to us of His existence...i don't know the answer to that. i believe there is evidence of Jesus' existence.

you're free to knock to this source, but this is pretty close to what i learned about it in college several years ago when i took a few religious courses as electives. i don't remember the sources we used, in fact, it could have just been lectures i remember.

The problem with the copies of Antiquities is that they appear to have been rewritten in favor of Jesus and some say too favorable to have been written by a Jew. Add to this that the Christians were the ones who kept and made the copies of the Josephus documents throughout history and you have a shadow of doubt cast upon the quotes.

However, all is not lost. First of all, there is no proof that such insertions into the text were ever made. They may be authentic. The "Testimonium" is found in every copy of Josephus in existence. Second, Josephus mentions many other biblically-relevant occurrences that are not in dispute (see outline below). This adds validity to the claim that Josephus knew about Jesus and wrote about Him, since he also wrote about other New Testament things. Nevertheless, though there may be some Christian insertions into the text, we can still reconstruct what may have been the original writing.
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http://carm.org/regarding-quotes-historian-josephus-about-jesus
 
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SuperstringTheory said:
No, it was never the point. The rituals that many Christians associate with Christmas originated with pagans, not Christians. That was the point. You are attempting to derail the conversation and make it appear that yurt claim that the mass was pagan or by pretending that is the entirety of what most Christians associate with the holiday.

Your argument lacks any attempt at truth or honesty, which is quite common for Christian apologists who are all pissy about the fate of their dying creed.
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odd.....my first post was that he had confused what Christians celebrate with what the pagans celebrated.......if that isn't the point, why has he been arguing with me ever since?......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
odd.....my first post was that he had confused what Christians celebrate with what the pagans celebrated.......if that isn't the point, why has he been arguing with me ever since?......
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because i've been telling you that you're WRONG and that i wasn't confused.

boy, you're not the sharpest tool in the shed are you....
 
cannabis said:
because i've been telling you that you're WRONG and that i wasn't confused.

boy, you're not the sharpest tool in the shed are you....
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if you couldn't simply say that what I said was correct but it didn't apply to you, then you won't serve to trim the twine either......
 
blackascoal said:
I'm a real person with a real birthdate. The biblical Jesus was not a real person.

Therein lies the difference.

Christianity is a belief. There is nothing factual about it.
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That's possible, but unlikely. It is extremely unlikely that Tacitus would have written about Jesus' execution, nor that a burgeoning new religion would have such an impact had he not existed. All Rome would have had to do to end the religion is simply point out that Jesus was fictional, which never happened. The people who executed him and hated the new religion never once denied his existence, they only denied his divinity.
 
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