Explaining women in combat arms

Well how can you know that as you weren't party to the goings on at AOL? Anyway suffice to say that I've said all I want to on this subject. I really don't care what you think and wouldn't have said anything if you hadn't butted in.

He said he didn't know anything about the AOL stuff; you misread his post.

No matter what happened there, the fact that people followed her here to post some of the lamest insults I've seen and just to generally hound her is pathetic.
 
Your trouble is, as Billy pointed out, is that you are too ready to jump in on stuff that you have little knowledge about. IF you think Darla is some kind of saint then you are a fool.

I have 26 pages of history with Ice and Loyal in one thread alone and countless other posts as well.
Darla and I have never had a cross word, even when we violently disagree.
Why is that Tom? I don't think Darla is a saint, nor do I think you are the antithesis.
Darla is bright, well-spoken, out-spoken, funny as hell, and I happen to agree with 95% of her politics.

You are a fool to drag your Darla hatred all over this board. Let something go for God's sake.
 
Really? My great-grandmother and great- grandfather came over here from Sicily. But my grandmother and grandfather on my dad's side came here from Ireland. My grandfather was in some trouble over there. I like to imagine it was for beating the shit out of Tom's father. But I really don't know what it was, it was always hush hush. No mafia ties though. My father was a wall street executive...hmmm, well maybe you can make that case? ha

They really frowned upon homo's back then....probably why he left.
 
Well how can you know that as you weren't party to the goings on at AOL? Anyway suffice to say that I've said all I want to on this subject. I really don't care what you think and wouldn't have said anything if you hadn't butted in.

I said something because all that bullshit from AOL was brought here to MY board. No I don't know what went on there. It would have been nice if it had STAYED there, but noooooo, you and your ilk have to bring it here and then keep bringing it up or keep going at Darla.

Honestly, if you dislike her so much then ignore her. Either way, grow up and grow a pair, willya?
 
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I have 26 pages of history with Ice and Loyal in one thread alone and countless other posts as well.
Darla and I have never had a cross word, even when we violently disagree.
Why is that Tom? I don't think Darla is a saint, nor do I think you are the antithesis.
Darla is bright, well-spoken, out-spoken, funny as hell, and I happen to agree with 95% of her politics.

You are a fool to drag your Darla hatred all over this board. Let something go for God's sake.
I have to say, that though we disagree on many points, darla does use humor to drive home a point.
It might be time to drop the animosity Tom.
 
I said something because all that bullshit from AOL was brought her to MY board. No I don't know what went on there. It would have been nice if it had STAYED there, but noooooo, you and your ilk have to bring it here and then keep bringing it up or keep going at Darla.

Honestly, if you dislike her so much then ignore her. Either way, grow up and grow a pair, willya?
Self moderation!!
 
I said something because all that bullshit from AOL was brought her to MY board. No I don't know what went on there. It would have been nice if it had STAYED there, but noooooo, you and your ilk have to bring it here and then keep bringing it up or keep going at Darla.

Honestly, if you dislike her so much then ignore her. Either way, grow up and grow a pair, willya?

Holy shit, you are not really one to talk with all that shit with DY and Solitary!!
 
So clearly you didn't read the post.
Not being in a combat MOS does not and will not preclude you from being in combat.

A military engineering unit in combat, under contact will behave differently to an infantry unit.

Engineers will defend their location to enable the completion of their specific task.

Infanteers will close with and engage an enemy in order to bring about his defeat.

My complaint is that women in the military shouldn't be deprived of promotions because of their gender, and that in the current system certain promotions depend on the soldier having combat experience, and that means men only. Which equivalent military task gives promotions to women only? It's an honest question, I really don't know. And, I'm pro-choice on the women in combat issue; if they want to try for it and meet the requirements, no problem.

If women are fighting and dying for the country they should have the same path to promotions men have. Or, drop the combat requirement in the one we're talking about specifically.
 
My complaint is that women in the military shouldn't be deprived of promotions because of their gender, and that in the current system certain promotions depend on the soldier having combat experience, and that means men only. Which equivalent military task gives promotions to women only? It's an honest question, I really don't know. And, I'm pro-choice on the women in combat issue; if they want to try for it and meet the requirements, no problem.

If women are fighting and dying for the country they should have the same path to promotions men have. Or, drop the combat requirement in the one we're talking about specifically.

So you are saying no women are getting promoted in the military?

I seem to remember hearing about women generals. How did that happen?
 
My complaint is that women in the military shouldn't be deprived of promotions because of their gender, and that in the current system certain promotions depend on the soldier having combat experience, and that means men only. Which equivalent military task gives promotions to women only? It's an honest question, I really don't know. And, I'm pro-choice on the women in combat issue; if they want to try for it and meet the requirements, no problem.

If women are fighting and dying for the country they should have the same path to promotions men have. Or, drop the combat requirement in the one we're talking about specifically.
Still not reading.
Women do go into combat, just not in a combat role.
Wars are not fought in lines anymore.
Front lines no longer exist.
 
My complaint is that women in the military shouldn't be deprived of promotions because of their gender, and that in the current system certain promotions depend on the soldier having combat experience, and that means men only. Which equivalent military task gives promotions to women only? It's an honest question, I really don't know. And, I'm pro-choice on the women in combat issue; if they want to try for it and meet the requirements, no problem.

If women are fighting and dying for the country they should have the same path to promotions men have. Or, drop the combat requirement in the one we're talking about specifically.

Exactly
 
So you are saying no women are getting promoted in the military?

I seem to remember hearing about women generals. How did that happen?

Nobody said there weren't female generals. Just not nearly as many as there should be.



Fifty-one percent of Americans are women, but they account for 16 percent of uniformed officers.

At the general-officer rank, the commission found very few females: only 4 percent of the Army's generals, 3 percent of the Marine Corps' generals, 7 percent of the Navy's admirals, and 9 percent of the Air Force's generals.

(Natch the far superior AF is less misogynistic than the *cough* Marines.)

Notice also that just like the Republican Party, life at the upper ranks of the military is primarily white men.
 
My complaint is that women in the military shouldn't be deprived of promotions because of their gender, and that in the current system certain promotions depend on the soldier having combat experience, and that means men only. Which equivalent military task gives promotions to women only? It's an honest question, I really don't know. And, I'm pro-choice on the women in combat issue; if they want to try for it and meet the requirements, no problem.

If women are fighting and dying for the country they should have the same path to promotions men have. Or, drop the combat requirement in the one we're talking about specifically.

Okay there are a few details that you dont know about unless youre in the military so Ill break it down so that you will have a better understanding of your comment.

1. There are no promotions that depend on combat experience.

Now you might say that this doesnt make sense, but promotions work differently from branch to branch and from enlisted to officer (and ill get into that in a minute)... what they do share involves promotion within a specific field. Again, I can only speak to the Marine Corps but Im sure there are some Soldiers here and some Air Force guys that can better explain their sides of the house. But right now, using the Marine Corps as an example there's 3 "fields" in addition to a law field. These three fields are "Combat Arms", "Wing", "Logistics"... most of the specialized MOS's fall within these three elements, now all 3 use comm and/or hq elements, etc.. but like for example if youre a pilot you arent in a Combat Arm, youre apart of a wing, if youre an infantryman you arent in logistics, youre in combat arms..

This is really only important for Officers in terms of promotions. So lets say you go through OCS (Officer Candidate School) and you finish top of your class, then you go through TBS (The Basic School) and you finish top of your class... what they normally do is let you rank where you'd like to go (choosing to go air adds qualifiers such as vision and height, etc..). For the Marine Corps most of the top candidates put down Infantry as their top choice... because in the Marine Corps EVERYTHING centers around the infantry. Now youre a butter bar 2nd Lt., and you then must go through the Infantry Officer Course and pass that. Now youre ready to become an infantry platoon commander. At this stage the US Government has expended a lot of money on training you to lead an infantry platoon. As you get promoted you then travel within that infantry path. You get promoted to Captain and become an infantry company commander. Then Major and Lt. Col and become a infantry battalion commander. Then Colonel which is an Infantry Regimental Commander, etc... Its not that you cant change fields, its that you are an officer leading men and your experience has been in leading infantry units. So for a service branch that is dedicated to infantry and artillery and tanks theres more of those units, and thus you need more leaders, thus... you end up with more men leading those units. It really has nothing to do with combat per se. It is VERY competitive and if an officer has led men in battle as a Lt, at the platoon level, and then possibly as a Captain at the company level, and those units performed well, then that is a reflection of his leadership and decision making ability and that does help him. But officers get promoted in peace time as well... its still competitive.

This process works the same if youre a pilot. Or maybe logistics is your forte? Understanding the process's of moving equipment and personell to locations on the other side of the world and then feeding them and sheltering them is a very complex task... and these officers get promoted as well within this field.

Its just very hard to take a Major or a Captain from logistics and then make them a Company commander of an infantry unit. They have no experience in these things... the mobility from field to field just isnt really there. So in the system it doesnt depend on combat experience as much as it depends on the experience of the individual in specific fields... those fields tend to provide more or less opportunity to see combat. As you can imagine the 2nd Lt that goes into logistics is more likely to see less combat than the 2nd Lt that goes into the infantry as a platoon commander. NEITHER of them may see combat, that isnt a given... but their specialty fields may increase or decrease the odds. The logistics officer that can get whatever is needed to any location on the planet with organization and forethought will promote just as fast not seeing any combat as the 2nd Lt from the infantry would, who has seen combat...

For women, these infantry and artillery and armor officer and enlisted billets have been closed. Again, this has nothing to do with combat. The hope is that is you open up all these other billets it may offer opportunity for these women to promote and hold different positions of power. Meaning, right now there is no female infantry battalion commanders... because a female could not enter the infantry. Just because she is now able to, doesnt mean she will promote or ever gain that title. Theres "x" number of 2nd Lt's in the infantry, and there "x" number of captains to run companies, and "x" number of Lt. Col. to run battalions... and these number shrink the higher you get up. Theres a lot more platoons than there are regiments, so every 2nd Lt isnt going to end up as a Colonel running a Regiment. Its EXTRMELY competitive.. so even though she could make the cut doesnt mean she'll ever get promoted above captain. And that has ZERO to do with combat.

This policy change is really more or less directed at opening up opportunity for female officers.

The enlisted side doesnt work this way. In the USMC you promote from E1 to E3 automatically. From E4 - E5 is done through a scoring system and seeing combat has no numerical value, so being in combat has no effect on whether or not you promote. From E5 - E7 is done through promotions boards, and again, seeing combat is not a factor. Having deployments is, having accomplishments are, seeing combat is not an accomplishment, it will not help you get promoted. Once you get to E8 you need make a decision. Do you go the 1st Sgt route or the Master Sgt route. The Master Sgt route is more MOS professional meaning you are considered a technical expert on your specific military job specialty. The 1st Sgt route means you are more interested in the administrative side of command. As an example, if an officer wants to know the best way to employ a 777 howitzer he goes to the E8 Master Sgt or E9 Master Gunnery Sgt. If there is a pay problem, or if a Marine has been caught stealing something or if you want your unit to be more aware of the dangers of drunk driving, you go to the E8 First Sgt or E9 Sgt Major... Again these ranks and the promotions to them are very competitive, but they have nothing to do with combat.

Just as with the officer side, these enlisted billets have been closed off to females. An infantry unit wouldnt have a female 1st Sgt, so this opens up a lot of new billets. There really is no "combat experience" benefit on the enlisted side, its just having more spots open to compete for. A female may complete the School of Infantry and her career within the infantry community may STILL never go above Gunny... even if she has seen combat.

So, when you ask if the military has an equivalent task that promotes women only they dont have one, they dont have any task per se that promoted men only, they did have fields that only had men, therefor only men would be promoted within it... and again, this is primarily for officers.. to get promoted to take over units such as the infantry which were only comprised of men.

I want you to understand this. The "combat" experience comes from the field of specialty in most cases... it has nothing to do with promotion mobility, its just the experience range and the likelihood to see combat can increase or decrease depending on the field.

There are female 1st Sgts in most every type of unit, there are female Sgt Majors already. There are female generals already. There just havent been females taking over fields of which they have no experience, they couldnt consciously promote a female to the rank of Lt. Col and put her in charge of an infantry battalion... she has had no experience in that.

This is the concern in terms of the standards... because if the standards are kept the same, then theres really no way for her to compete with her male counter-parts. USMC officers are not "average", the battalion commander of an infantry unit is the best of the best. We are in effect advocating more risk just so there is a possibility that a female MIGHT be able to gain rank within that community. We're putting lives in danger for the slim chance for a woman to pick up a promotion in a new field... To me this is dangerous and entirely not justifiable.

Women are not trying for "combat"... its just a logical conclusion that if you are a woman, and then you are in a field such as combat arms which are tasked with closing with the killing the enemy, that in and of itself being your primary purpose, then its more likely that you will see combat than if you were a supply officer.
 
My complaint is that women in the military shouldn't be deprived of promotions because of their gender, and that in the current system certain promotions depend on the soldier having combat experience, and that means men only. Which equivalent military task gives promotions to women only? It's an honest question, I really don't know. And, I'm pro-choice on the women in combat issue; if they want to try for it and meet the requirements, no problem.

If women are fighting and dying for the country they should have the same path to promotions men have. Or, drop the combat requirement in the one we're talking about specifically.

They are not though, there are hundreds of MOS and the preclusion only applies to several of them. There have been women generals and admirals since the early '70s. Actually if you think about it the whole thing is nonsense anyway, if there were no wars being pursued how would anybody get promoted if that was the criterion?

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