Until our leaders admit the true nature of Islamic extremes, we will never defeat it

blackascoal said:
I don't ignore the historical tribalism that exists within the ME .. but you can't ignore that we stirred that pot and have used it to our 'advantage' for conquest .. AND, out blind position on Israel puts us at odds with much of the world, not just the ME.

One can hardly have a sane discussion about sectarian violence in the ME without the conversation about how badly we've played it, how much we contribute to the violence that has spread globally, and the absolute failure of the 'war on terror.'
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Again, I agree and I don't ignore it but, as I've said several times now, even had those historical events had not occurred and the west had been nothing but benevolent towards the ME extremism would still abound there because of the midevil socioeconomic systems still in place there that traps far to many into a cycle of poverty.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Again, I agree and I don't ignore it but, as I've said several times now, even had those historical events had not occurred and the west had been nothing but benevolent towards the ME extremism would still abound there because of the midevil socioeconomic systems still in place there that traps far to many into a cycle of poverty.
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On that we agree.

My point wasn't that the west is responsible for all the problems in the ME.

Thanks for the clarity brother.
 
blackascoal said:
.. and they would be left to solve their own problems .. just as we have.

Our policy was never completely altruistic, pristine and pure .. we mass-murdered countless innocent Muslims/people for oil.

That isn't just an aside.
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No it's not nor did I claim it to be but to keep pounding my point home, that is a secondary reason for extremism in the ME and NOT the primary reason for extremism.
 
Socrtease said:
Truth? You don't spout truth. Living in the US is a dream compared to living in the Middle east. During Desert Shield/Storm every day in Riyadh people were mutilated in the square. Almost ALL of them Palestinian. Hands hacked off, a few beheadings, all mostly for being Palestinian, though charges were always trumped up. Islamic countries suck, life for their people suck. YOU have never lived one day in this country as bad as most Afghan or Iraqi kids live everyday. Your daughter has NEVER lived a life as shitty as the average Afghan woman. I don't know when the last time you were in an Islamic country, if ever, but I got to see first hand the difference between the haves and the have nots in Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Never on your worst day has it been that bad.
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That's just simply not true! My brother in-law spent 10 years in Dubai, he loved it there. Wants to move his family there. Malasia and Indonesia are fantastic places to live. Sure there are shitholes in the ME....but there are shitholes here too. Ever been to michigan?
 
Rana said:
I can't begin to imagine and I am always grateful for living here, it is also why my Muslim friends are grateful to be living here.
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Life is indeed good here (unless you're some poor dumb bastard stuck in michigan) but there are tons of Islamic countries that are incredible places to live. They're not all reactionary shitholes in a dessert.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Life is indeed good here (unless you're some poor dumb bastard stuck in michigan) but there are tons of Islamic countries that are incredible places to live. They're not all reactionary shitholes in a dessert.
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Mott, in which of the countries you mentioned do women have true human rights? Can a woman in Dubai file a rape complaint and not be afraid?
 
Darla said:
If I were your brother-in-law's wife I would tell him have fun! Then I'd file for divorce.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/01/29/dubais-shameful-record-rape
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No you wouldn't. Divorce isn't legal where they live. You also say that with the bias and values of an American woman who lives where there's an abundance of economic opportunity but your point is valid. The lack of legal protections (and not just for women, any foreigner or non-muslim does not have equal legal protections) in Dubai and being seperated from his family were the primary reasons he left. Point I was making is Dubai has a world class standard of living and is far removed from the stereotype Soc presented.
 
I've never understood many liberals' love affair with Islam. Surely if Sharia were to ever become law of the land, they'd be first to go.
 
Darla said:
Mott, in which of the countries you mentioned do women have true human rights? Can a woman in Dubai file a rape complaint and not be afraid?
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Hold onto your hat .. the arab/muslim country that offered the most open society to its women population ... LIBYA .. the one that we just destroyed.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
Who is this article intendted for Tom? Most of the right wingers on here are barely literate and their solution to any foreign policy is to "Kill brown people" and as such, if they are your intended audience, you've pretty much wasted your time.

The problem with most Islamic countries is the same problem you have in most of the third world. Ancient fuedal societies stuck in the middle ages with populations that, by and large, don't want to change their social structures. That has left them weak and open to dominance, oppresion and gross exploitation by the west. Most despise their weakness and hate the west for exploiting their weaknesses. In reality it's the frustration within segments of their population at their societies inability to modernize and deal with the industrialized west that is the cause of their extremism.

So what can we in the west do? Not much other than to encourage modernization in the third world. That's hard to do when most of the third world does not share our western values. That's a shame cause in most of these third world nations their elite classes exploit their general population with far more ruthlessness than the European colonialist did (and that's saying a lot). Thailand and the Philippines would be an excellent example. Scratch their modern surface and underneath they are still very much midevil fuedal societies in which the elite few are staggering wealthy and the majority of the population are poor and the elite don't govern from impersonal institutions which rely on integrity and a utilitarian philosophy to benefit all but care only for preserving their priveleges at the cost of the many within their nations.

Eventually these third world nations will have their own comparable renaisance/reformation and revolt from the tyranny of the oligarchs who keep their nations in a midevil fuedal state. Until then and considering that the west is all to willing to exploit their weakness we will remain an object of their frustration.
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which party is 'killing brown people' now Mutt? Would that be Republican President Obama? NOPE... that would be your democratic President Obomba.
 
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