How the NRA Rewrote the Second Amendment

[/B]Does these mean that a well regulated militia, ie, we the people, should possess only weapons whose use could contribute to the common defense???

What Miller says is government is powerless to restrict the possession and use (by ordinary citizens) of arms of the type in common use of the citizenry, that are of a type that is part of the ordinary military equipment or of a type of arm that's use could contribute to the common defense (in the types of engagements militia is expected to face).

A reading that applies all prongs of the Miller protection criteria demands that modern assault weapons are protected as are modern revolvers and pistols. The only thing that the Miller test looks at is how effective the gun is at killing people.

Combat shotguns for military use are mostly similar to the police riot shotgun; but the military versions may have provisions to mount a bayonet and may be fitted with ventilated steel or plastic hand guards over the barrel to reduce the danger of a soldier burning his hand on the hot barrel during rapid fire. Riot shotguns are also more likely to trade off the increased magazine capacity for the decreased size that entails; for example, a combat model would be more likely to have a 51 cm (20 inch) barrel and up to a 10-round capacity, while riot shotguns are often found with barrels of 35 to 46 cm (14 to 18 inches) and a capacity of 5 to 8 rounds.

The Supreme Court heard nothing from Miller, there were no briefs filed and no oral argument . . . All the Court heard was the US Attorney's arguments and it did not have any independent knowledge of sawed-off shotguns being used in warfare.

Just three years after Miller a lower federal court had occasion to review Miller and interpret it. That court --Cases v. U.S, 131 F.2d 916 (1st Cir. 1942)-- recognized that the gun SCOTUS said "had no reasonable relationship" would indeed be useful in warfare and Miller's rule, if fully applied would mean all federal gun control would be struck down because:

"At any rate the rule of the Miller case, if intended to be comprehensive and complete would seem to be already outdated, in spite of the fact that it was formulated only three and a half years ago, because of the well known fact that in the so called 'Commando Units' some sort of military use seems to have been found for almost any modern lethal weapon. In view of this, if the rule of the Miller case is general and complete, the result would follow that, under present day conditions, the federal government would be empowered only to regulate the possession or use of weapons such as a flintlock musket or a matchlock harquebus. But to hold that the Second Amendment limits the federal government to regulations concerning only weapons which can be classed as antiques or curiosities,-- almost any other might bear some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia unit of the present day,-- is in effect to hold that the limitation of the Second Amendment is absolute.

Another objection to the rule of the Miller case as a full and general statement is that according to it Congress would be prevented by the Second Amendment from regulating the possession or use by private persons not present or prospective members of any military unit, of distinctly military arms, such as machine guns, trench mortars, anti-tank or anti-aircraft guns, even though under the circumstances surrounding such possession or use it would be inconceivable that a private person could have any legitimate reason for having such a weapon. It seems to us unlikely that the framers of the Amendment intended any such result."​

While offering a brutally honest (if not hyperbolic) interpretation of the Miller holding, this court offers no support that the framers intended the federal government to have power over the personal arms of the private citizen. It runs with that though, expressing how uncomfortable the court was with what it deemed to be the inevitable societal implications of the Miller rule being applicable at their present time, the Cases court simply rejected the Miller holding.

But now the judges were faced with a dilemma. The law could afford them no comfort, the law was a bed of nails. This realization, I would go so far as to say it manifested itself as a panic, forced them to turn to their only solace, the facts of the case before them. It was time to make lemonade.

The opinion continues:

"We therefore turn to the record in the case at bar. From it it appears that on or about August 27, 1941, the appellant received into his possession and carried away ten rounds of ammunition, and that on the evening of August 30 of the same year he went to Annadale's Beach Club on Isla Verde in the municipality of Carolina, Puerto Rico, equipped with a .38 caliber Colt type revolver of Spanish make which, when some one turned out the lights, he used, apparently not wholly without effect, upon another patron of the place who in some way seems to have incurred his displeasure. While the weapon may be capable of military use, or while at least familiarity with it might be regarded as of value in training a person to use a comparable weapon of military type and caliber, still there is no evidence that the appellant was or ever had been a member of any military organization or that his use of the weapon under the circumstances disclosed was in preparation for a military career."

So now they make the incredible leap of stipulating the state of mind of the person claiming a Second Amendment right as a condition for exercise. The Cases court changed the rules, they required that the person, as a prerequisite to maintaining a Second Amendment claim, have as his intent in using the firearm, essentially his paramount concern, the maintenance and preservation of the militia! If the gun isn't used by the military, its use is only protected if that use is "in preparation for a military career."

Congratulations! You have just witnessed the birth of the "militia right" interpretation of the 2nd Amendment!

This travesty will be used and built upon for 66 years to sustain unconstitutional gun control laws until Heller invalidated it in 2008 (along with the "state's right" interpretation, created in U.S. v. Tot, 131 F.2d 261 (3 rd Cir. 1942).

That is the indisputable history of what christiefan is spewing . . .
 
Art. 1, Sec 10, Par 3 tells us you are incorrect. it specifically states that no state shall keep troops without the consent of congress.

No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.

Before the Amendment then?
 
It seems to me that anyone not actually illiterate understands that the Constitutional Amendment concerns the States' right to have an armed militia. What the nutters suppose it has to do with arming every ape in every tree escapes most people.

Your position / belief is profoundly incorrect on multiple planes, philosophical, historical and legal. There is no militia right for anyone (state or citizen) to claim under the Constitution and specifically the 2nd Amendment. IOW, there is no "right" for anyone to call up, organize, train or deploy citizens as militia. Any action of calling up, organizing, training or deploying citizens as militia can only be done in accordance with the POWERS granted to the federal and state governments in Art I Sec 8, cl 16 of the Constitution (see; Houston v. Moore, 18 U.S. (5 Wheat.) (1820), Martin v. Mott, 25 U.S. (12 Wheat.) (1827), Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U.S. 366 (1917) and Perpich v. Dep't of Defense, 496 U.S. (1990)).

The 2nd Amendment has never been inspected for, or held to inform on any aspect of militia powers.

As for me, (assuming I fall under your "nutter" assignment), I don't claim any rights as originating from, granted by, given by or established by, the 2nd Amendment. I consider the right to arms to be an original retained right . . . and thus I believe the right is in no manner dependent upon the words of the 2nd Amendment.
 
Your position / belief is profoundly incorrect on multiple planes, philosophical, historical and legal. There is no militia right for anyone (state or citizen) to claim under the Constitution and specifically the 2nd Amendment. IOW, there is no "right" for anyone to call up, organize, train or deploy citizens as militia. Any action of calling up, organizing, training or deploying citizens as militia can only be done in accordance with the POWERS granted to the federal and state governments in Art I Sec 8, cl 16 of the Constitution (see; Houston v. Moore, 18 U.S. (5 Wheat.) (1820), Martin v. Mott, 25 U.S. (12 Wheat.) (1827), Selective Draft Law Cases, 245 U.S. 366 (1917) and Perpich v. Dep't of Defense, 496 U.S. (1990)).

The 2nd Amendment has never been inspected for, or held to inform on any aspect of militia powers.

As for me, (assuming I fall under your "nutter" assignment), I don't claim any rights as originating from, granted by, given by or established by, the 2nd Amendment. I consider the right to arms to be an original retained right . . . and thus I believe the right is in no manner dependent upon the words of the 2nd Amendment.

Today, the term militia is used to describe a number of groups within the United States. Primarily, these are:

  • The organized militia defined by the Militia Act of 1903, which repealed section two hundred thirty-two and sections 1625 - 1660 of title sixteen of the Revised Statutes, consists of State militia forces, notably the National Guard and the Naval Militia.[SUP][2][/SUP] The National Guard, however, is not to be confused with the National Guard of the United States, which is a federally recognized reserve military force, although the two are linked.
  • The reserve militia[SUP][3][/SUP] are part of the unorganized militia defined by the Militia Act of 1903 as consisting of every able-bodied man of at least 17 and under 45 years of age who is not a member of the National Guard or Naval Militia.
  • Former members of the armed forces are also considered part of the "unorganized militia" per Sec 313 Title 32 of the US Code

The right to bear arms is the right of every citizen to self defense....and has nothing to do with establishing a state army or state navy...or a national guard....

The right of the people to bear arms shall not be infringed is plain a simple to understand....WE are the people, not the gov., not the state, etc.....
 
Suffice it to say that the gun monkeys will always be gun monkeys. Also suffice it to say that each day in EVERY way they are now losing their precious cover of the oft misinterpreted 2nd Amendment. I predict that in future years the gun monkeys will mostly have to be institutionalized. The USA will survive in tact and without them.

There are still European monarchies that you might find more suitable than living under the tyranny of the US Constitution.
 
I don't understand the NRA and other gun nuts hysteria. Some gun control refroms are needed. That doesn't equate Takin are guns.

Legitimate people will still be able to buy them. But wackos and criminals shouldn't. People on no fly lists shouldn't. They can right now.

Except when discussing the issue with irrational gun nuts, "some gun control reforms" does indeed equate to "taking all our guns"!
 
It is written.....THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE TO BEAR ARMS SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.

mi·li·tia
məˈliSHə/
noun
noun: militia; plural noun: militias

  • a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency.

    • a military force that engages in rebel or terrorist activities, typically in opposition to a regular army.


    • all able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service.








EVERY citizen is the militia....we, the people

There was NO QUESTION with the meaning of the 2nd amendment for over 200 years, now the leftist want to re-write it....the right wants to preserve it....

Why did you leave off the first half of the amendment?
 
It seems to me that anyone not actually illiterate understands that the Constitutional Amendment concerns the States' right to have an armed militia. What the nutters suppose it has to do with arming every ape in every tree escapes most people.

That's why when gun nuts cite the 2nd, they almost always quote just the second half, leaving off the "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state..."
 
The main issue that people have with it is there is no due process. You get on a list, you aren't even notified, you can't take them to court (not at this time), and the "fix" for that is to allow you 60 days to sue to have them show evidence for a reason you are on the list, but they are allowed to introduce redacted documents for this "evidence"... that is IF, and that is a big IF, you figure out that you are on the list in that 60 day period.

This means that a government that might use the IRS to go after specific groups could simply just slap your name on there, redact up a document and keep your name there even if you happen to guess your name is on a list that nobody at all can read...

Imagine if you had to go through that for voting, or to be allowed to speak, or before you had to allow people to search your house.... or any other number of rights you actually have. It most definitely, (to paraphrase a certain pResident) not "who we are"...
 
The main issue that people have with it is there is no due process. You get on a list, you aren't even notified, you can't take them to court (not at this time), and the "fix" for that is to allow you 60 days to sue to have them show evidence for a reason you are on the list, but they are allowed to introduce redacted documents for this "evidence"... that is IF, and that is a big IF, you figure out that you are on the list in that 60 day period.

This means that a government that might use the IRS to go after specific groups could simply just slap your name on there, redact up a document and keep your name there even if you happen to guess your name is on a list that nobody at all can read...

Imagine if you had to go through that for voting, or to be allowed to speak, or before you had to allow people to search your house.... or any other number of rights you actually have. It most definitely, (to paraphrase a certain pResident) not "who we are"...

Excellent points. The same goes with "mental health". It is such a broad term. Is it someone who sees a social worker because they are "sad"? Gets a prescription for Prozac?

These are all backdoor ways of grabbing guns and as you said they would never be applied to other "rights" leftists say they cherish.
 
Excellent points. The same goes with "mental health". It is such a broad term. Is it someone who sees a social worker because they are "sad"? Gets a prescription for Prozac?

These are all backdoor ways of grabbing guns and as you said they would never be applied to other "rights" leftists say they cherish.

just think if democrats get all both houses and the whitehouse, they could simply add 'anti-authority' to the list of mental illness and voila, gun bans.
 
Excellent points. The same goes with "mental health". It is such a broad term. Is it someone who sees a social worker because they are "sad"? Gets a prescription for Prozac?

These are all backdoor ways of grabbing guns and as you said they would never be applied to other "rights" leftists say they cherish.

What guns have been grabbed?
 
look up the roberti-roos act in california and it's after actions.

the NY SAFE act

the assault and high capacity mag ban in connecticutt.

This refers to RR in Cali. "Firearms and magazines that were legally owned at the time the law was passed were grandfathered in if they were registered with the California Department of Justice DOJ.[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP]

Nothing was "grabbed" if owners were allowed to keep what they already had.

Still looking at the other ones you mentioned.
 
Quote Originally Posted by christiefan915 View Post
What guns have been grabbed?
look up the roberti-roos act in california and it's after actions.

the NY SAFE act

the assault and high capacity mag ban in connecticutt.



Firearms and magazines that were legally owned at the time the law was passed were grandfathered in if they were registered with the California Department of Justice DOJ.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberti-Roos_Assault_Weapons_Control_Act_of_1989

Got that, bunky? This means that NO GUNS WERE "GRABBED" in California.


And you are confusing AMMO pack limitation with the complete gun and ammo for the New York Safe Act http://programs.governor.ny.gov/nysafeact/gun-reform If you can site one part of this law that "confiscates" a weapon that has been legally purchased.




Once again, your oather/threeper/fibbertarian revisionism is grounded into the dust!
 
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