The Christ Haters Are At It Again Folks.

NOVA said:
What you say is basically true... but its certainly not just Christians.....

The point is....no matter where you exist in the world, you will be part of some society, a society with customs and beliefs on how its members will behave....
and religion may or may not be relevant in that society...either way, you will live by their rules or you will perish unless you convince them to obey you and your
version of how things should be and what others should believe...and thats a losing battle.

or find yourself some cave to live alone and do anything your little heart desires....

If you choose to live in the company of others, be prepared to adjust to a life with rules set down by that majority (mob rule), elected leaders, or dictators, whatever that society
offers you......or fight a losing battle....

Maybe its YOU trying to force your beliefs on others that choose to believe in something else. I saw no one try to convert you .... only you ridiculing their views.

You see them living in their ignorance and they see you living in your ignorance....life is a two way street, get used to it.
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The difference is in how the government is being used.

If a gay or lesbian couple marry, there is NO chance that it will affect me and my hetero marriage in any way.

On the other hand, if religious bigots use government to block the marriage of that couple, their lives are affected in a profound way.

And, that is a huge difference. Like the 14th amendment promotes, like the SC decision in Loving v Virginia, our direction needs to be one of equal treatment. Any exception from that needs serious justification.
 
WillReadmore said:
I've heard that, too, but I don't give it any credit. Nobody who burgles thinks their act should be legal. Very few murderers think they should be allowed to murder.

More importantly, that isn't the area of conflict.

The area of conflict is that Christians want to use sin as a basis for law, thus harnessing government as well as justifying personal acts of hate in going after those who sin.

But, of course they don't mean that in general - they've just picked certain sins for government to be used in that way.

For example, Christians want to use government to deny basic rights to same sex couples - while at the same time ignoring those who stole the homes of millions of American citizens.

They want cover of law to discriminate in their stores, restaurants, hotels, etc. as if this were the 1950's and these people were of the wrong color.
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This is not complicated. We are all born sinners. Salvation is through Christ Jesus.

When we choose to disobey either man's (government) laws or God's laws it is because of pride. In this sense pride does not mean you're proud of what you've done. It means pride in the sense of determining in your heart that you know it's wrong, but you're going to try and get away with it because you DO KNOW it's wrong.

As Christians we are told by God to obey our government's laws unless it conflicts with God's Word.

I don't know how to simplify this any further.
 
Milagro said:
I am surprised that nobody has noticed this story about a town council that is too scared to have a cross on a Xmas tree in the town square because they may be sued by the ACLU!!
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Put the cross on private property - like an adjacent business or someone's front yard.

Right now, separation of church and state is a big deal, because of the many attempts to use religion as a justification for laws and government enforcement against those who don't share the religion.

Surely the right wing could understand this as government overreach.
 
WillReadmore said:
Put the cross on private property - like an adjacent business or someone's front yard.

Right now, separation of church and state is a big deal, because of the many attempts to use religion as a justification for laws and government enforcement against those who don't share the religion.

Surely the right wing could understand this as government overreach.
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Separation of church and state is about keeping the government out of the church (or synagogue or mosque) not vice versa.
 
WillReadmore said:
Put the cross on private property - like an adjacent business or someone's front yard.

Right now, separation of church and state is a big deal, because of the many attempts to use religion as a justification for laws and government enforcement against those who don't share the religion.

Surely the right wing could understand this as government overreach.
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Why? Xmas is a religious festival or at least it was until the big bad corporations took it over. I wonder if you would interfere with the festival of Eid, Diwali or Hannukah?

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Stretch said:
This is not complicated. We are all born sinners. Salvation is through Christ Jesus.

When we choose to disobey either man's (government) laws or God's laws it is because of pride. In this sense pride does not mean you're proud of what you've done. It means pride in the sense of determining in your heart that you know it's wrong, but you're going to try and get away with it because you DO KNOW it's wrong.

As Christians we are told by God to obey our government's laws unless it conflicts with God's Word.

I don't know how to simplify this any further.
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No, your model of what drives sin is absolutely ridiculous.

For example, a lot of home invasion burglary is driven by addiction. NOBODY involved in that has any pride, and they know that better than anyone else.

You can simplify it further by noting that being sinful is NOT an excuse for making a law. I already pointed out MANY sins for which there is no law - and for which making a law would be preposterous.

You can simplify it by noting that the Bible encourages loving the sinner, offering help in cases where help is needed.

You can simplify it by noting that not everybody shares your religion, and using government to press your religious ideas is not acceptable.
 
WillReadmore said:
The difference is in how the government is being used.

If a gay or lesbian couple marry, there is NO chance that it will affect me and my hetero marriage in any way.

On the other hand, if religious bigots use government to block the marriage of that couple, their lives are affected in a profound way.

And, that is a huge difference. Like the 14th amendment promotes, like the SC decision in Loving v Virginia, our direction needs to be one of equal treatment. Any exception from that needs serious justification.
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Thats why we have the 14th....no 'bigot' is going to do away with it....incidentally, equal treatment is a two way street too....which should have seen Hillary charged with her crimes and affirmative action not ever allowed, or the two tier traffic fine system in parts of California, one for rich and one for poor, or allowing cities to ignore federal law, and list goes on....equal justice doesn't quite mesh with a graduated tax system either....
and like it or not, murderers, thieves and bigots have rights.

Same sex marriage is legal, abortion is legal, and homosexuality...our system seems to work relatively well in most cases but it isn't perfect and probably never will be.
 
Milagro said:
Why? Xmas is a religious festival or at least it was until the big bad corporations took it over. I wonder if you would interfere with the festival of Eid, Diwali or Hannukah?
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The religious festivals you mention are really never an issue here in the US.

I've experienced Eid in Muslim countries. What I've seen is a celebration that is intensely familial - not involving outward display.

Nevertheless, if there ever was a case where a government promotion of one religion occurred in the US, I'd certainly oppose that - or at least examine it for . In fact, as an American I'd probably be less attentive in noting cases of government promoting Christianity. But, that doesn't make it more legit.
 
Milagro said:
Why? Xmas is a religious festival or at least it was until the big bad corporations took it over. I wonder if you would interfere with the festival of Eid, Diwali or Hannukah?
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The religious festivals you mention are really never an issue here in the US.

I've experienced Eid in Muslim countries. What I've seen is a celebration that is intensely familial - not involving outward display.

Nevertheless, if there ever was a case where a government promotion of one religion occurred in the US, I'd certainly oppose that - or at least examine it for . In fact, as an American I'd probably be less attentive in noting cases of government promoting Christianity. But, that doesn't make it more legit.
 
WillReadmore said:
The religious festivals you mention are really never an issue here in the US.

I've experienced Eid in Muslim countries. What I've seen is a celebration that is intensely familial - not involving outward display.

Nevertheless, if there ever was a case where a government promotion of one religion occurred in the US, I'd certainly oppose that - or at least examine it for . In fact, as an American I'd probably be less attentive in noting cases of government promoting Christianity. But, that doesn't make it more legit.
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Have you ever been to a Parisian banlieue?

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ck-streets-Muslim-majority-areas-France-Paris

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