Politics aside do folks on this board support our action in Syria?

Element-22-Cat said:
Any Sarin gas in Saddam's old mortar rounds would have decomposed a long time ago. The shelf life for Sarin in shells is a matter of months.
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Then why did I get paid 50K a year for four years to develop and QA an incinerator for the U.S.A.F to get rid of our old stocks from the 1960s in the 1990s?

Fool! You don't know what you're talking about!

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cawacko said:
Not that we don't have our challenges but what other country has had a better democracy or economic success? I mean without knowing you maybe you think the world is doomed and no country is worthy of imitating.
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Democracy doesn't work in primitive cultures. Can you name one successful uprising since the concept of Arab Spring was born? Hell...Bush 1 told Iraqis to rise up against Hussein after Desert Storm. We promised backing, and pulled back as Hussein gassed thousands of dissidents.

Once you remove a strong central govt. the rival tribes all try to destroy each other. And how did Democracy work out in Palestine years ago?
 
Kurmugeon said:
Then why did I get paid 50K a year for four years to develop and QA an incinerator for the U.S.A.F to get rid of our old stocks from the 1960s in the 1990s?

Fool! You don't know what you're talking about!

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You trying to tell me that the US stores its chemical weapons in mortar shells. They leak so they destroyed them. Sure there is toxic crap left in them but you don't have active nerve gas. Sarin in a shell has an effective half life of about 2 months and sitting around in a dessert for decades isn't going to leave you with a weapon. As Hans Blix said you can find just as dangerous stuff under your kitchen sink.
 
Althea said:
Democracy doesn't work in primitive cultures. Can you name one successful uprising since the concept of Arab Spring was born? Hell...Bush 1 told Iraqis to rise up against Hussein after Desert Storm. We promised backing, and pulled back as Hussein gassed thousands of dissidents.

Once you remove a strong central govt. the rival tribes all try to destroy each other. And how did Democracy work out in Palestine years ago?
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I was more responding to the claim democracy doesn't work (here and in Europe)

I'm not going to disagree with your claim that democracy didn't work after the Arab Spring but on this board that celebrates oppressed people I'm not willing to say that.
 
cawacko said:
I was more responding to the claim democracy doesn't work (here and in Europe)

I'm not going to disagree with your claim that democracy didn't work after the Arab Spring but on this board that celebrates oppressed people I'm not willing to say that.
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Did democracy in the Middle East work before the Arab Spring? I'm not sure why Althea made that qualification.
 
Element-22-Cat said:
Did democracy in the Middle East work before the Arab Spring? I'm not sure why Althea made that qualification.
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Isn't that non p.c. to make that claim? (I mean I probably buy into they need a strong man but I'm a Repubkican wasp. Can a liberal say that?)
 
cawacko said:
Isn't that non p.c. to make that claim? (I mean I probably buy into they need a strong man but I'm a Repubkican wasp. Can a liberal say that?)
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Sure a liberal can say that, and I really don't think it is politically incorrect anyway. The Middle East isn't flourishing with democracies. And the one the US installed isn't exactly a shiny success. Of course you can also include Afghanistan and you're still batting zero.
 
don't forget Libya..sometimes it's part of the mideast -sometime N. Africa.
It was a thriving dictatorship prior to the neocon "Smart Power" projection
 
Element-22-Cat said:
Sure a liberal can say that, and I really don't think it is politically incorrect anyway. The Middle East isn't flourishing with democracies. And the one the US installed isn't exactly a shiny success. Of course you can also include Afghanistan and you're still batting zero.
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The Iraq installed democracy isn't even close to shiny or dull. It is a major failure.

I don't believe that Muslims, unless they choose to come to a western country and actually live under the laws, can ever coexist in a democracy. Their religion forbids it. Their religion expressly spells out that they must have a theocracy. Now, it doesn't say they can't live under a western democracy, but if they are the ones establishing the government and the laws, there is no way that democracy can ever exist with within the confines of the Quran or Sharia law.

At the time, I did think Iraq was a good idea. However, like many others, I have come to the conclusion the Muslims are not like the Germans or Japanese, their ideology about Muhammad is too strong. They need a strongman to lead them. I really don't believe there is any other way with them.
 
Yaya said:
The Iraq installed democracy isn't even close to shiny or dull. It is a major failure.
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I was being uneccessarily sarcastic, but that's why I said including Afghanistan we are still batting zero, Iraq is a failure.

I don't believe that Muslims, unless they choose to come to a western country and actually live under the laws, can ever coexist in a democracy. Their religion forbids it. Their religion expressly spells out that they must have a theocracy. Now, it doesn't say they can't live under a western democracy, but if they are the ones establishing the government and the laws, there is no way that democracy can ever exist with within the confines of the Quran or Sharia law.

At the time, I did think Iraq was a good idea. However, like many others, I have come to the conclusion the Muslims are not like the Germans or Japanese, their ideology about Muhammad is too strong. They need a strongman to lead them. I really don't believe there is any other way with them.
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Time will tell, it took centuries for Europe to actually develop democracies and neuter state churches that often dictated laws and customs. True democracies in the West are only about a 100 years old, and it hasn't helped the Middle East that Western countries have propped up dictators and interfered in their politics.

I understand what you are saying and I'm not very hopeful that we will see any sort of major reform in Islamic countries in the near future but it would be great to be proved wrong.
 
Element-22-Cat said:
I was being uneccessarily sarcastic, but that's why I said including Afghanistan we are still batting zero, Iraq is a failure.

Time will tell, it took centuries for Europe to actually develop democracies and neuter state churches that often dictated laws and customs. True democracies in the West are only about a 100 years old, and it hasn't helped the Middle East that Western countries have propped up dictators and interfered in their politics.

I understand what you are saying and I'm not very hopeful that we will see any sort of major reform in Islamic countries in the near future but it would be great to be proved wrong.
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Yes, I will happily be proved wrong as well. And it could very well start with the Muslims living in western democracies. The reality is, no one is moving to any ME countries to find a better life. Maybe a scant few who want to live under the strict Muslim laws, but Muslims, by and large, are emigrating, not migrating to their supposed Muslim paradises.
 
Yaya said:
Yes, I will happily be proved wrong as well. And it could very well start with the Muslims living in western democracies. The reality is, no one is moving to any ME countries to find a better life. Maybe a scant few who want to live under the strict Muslim laws, but Muslims, by and large, are emigrating, not migrating to their supposed Muslim paradises.
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You have to remember that the Islamic countries that are wealthy (SA, Kuwait, UAE) which Muslims would want to migrate to are typically very restrictive in their immigration policies. They will have a lot of foreign workers providing cheap labor but getting citizenship is difficult. Me no want to share my oil money! And yeah most of the other countries don't offer a lot to migrate to.
 
Element-22-Cat said:
You have to remember that the Islamic countries that are wealthy (SA, Kuwait, UAE) which Muslims would want to migrate to are typically very restrictive in their immigration policies. They will have a lot of foreign workers providing cheap labor but getting citizenship is difficult. Me no want to share my oil money! And yeah most of the other countries don't offer a lot to migrate to.
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That is true, however, the point I was trying to make is that far more Muslims want to leave Islamic countries for western democracies. Where life for them, is better.

Ironic to say the least.
 
With these actions which are aligned with Valerie Jarret's, Obama's and Iran's interests, Trump is on very dangerous ground.

If he continues down that path, it could end very, very badly for Trump, and all American Military.


But, it is not yet too late to pull back and evaluate...

Trump needs, from this point forward, to be double, triple, hell, Sintilla suspiscious of any request for any action that does not...

Wait for it....

Really hear it!....

Does NOT end in massive numbers of ISIS DEAD and Captured, and a huge diminishment of Iranian Islamic Power!


If you want to see the puppet strings, before they're pulled taunt!... Look for Iranian Advantage!

Not always ISIS Advantage!

They even have a special word for it: Taqiyya

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx

ISIS is a tool! A means to an end... Watch the tool user!

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Queen Snowflake said:
I am truly torn, because even though it was a strike on the facility that launched the attack, what now? What is Trump's message to Assad?



What next?
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Element-22-Cat said:
I was being uneccessarily sarcastic, but that's why I said including Afghanistan we are still batting zero, Iraq is a failure.

Time will tell, it took centuries for Europe to actually develop democracies and neuter state churches that often dictated laws and customs. True democracies in the West are only about a 100 years old, and it hasn't helped the Middle East that Western countries have propped up dictators and interfered in their politics.

I understand what you are saying and I'm not very hopeful that we will see any sort of major reform in Islamic countries in the near future but it would be great to be proved wrong.
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It did take time for Europe to develop secular democracy.

There's an important distinction though: there's nothing in the Christian holy writ that forbades secular government. In fact, one can argue Christianity was never intended to be a basis for theocracy.

I don't know that Islam is compatible with democracy or secular rule. Individual Muslims can certainly live under it---but the religion itself isn't amenable liberal democracy.
 
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