On banning the Confederate Flag and Renaming Military Bases

[Mott the Hoople]

I think historical education is a priority, and every American should receive an education on the civil war and the Confereracy. None of my history teachers ever needed a statue to teach history.

Local citizens should have a say on what statues are displayed in their parks. I suspect Richmond and Atlanta are majority black, and we can all understand how offensive public memorials to Robert E Lee and Nathan Bedford Forrest would be to them.

The United States prides itself on being a prodigy of western civilization, and that is who we are going to compare our conduct to. In the 19th century, chattel slavery was practiced nowhere in the western world outside of the American South. 19th century Brazil and the Caribbean are not the western models we aspire to.

Even the ancient Greeks did not practice chattel slavery. They had slavery, but not chattel slavery which is the cruelest and harshest form of slave labor.

I do not think we should get in the habit of comparing ourselves to the backwards and autocratic tsarist Russian agrarian economy. But even a feudal serf labor system never reached the level of cruelty and inhumanity of a chattel slavery system. Given a choice, almost all 19th century black residents of the south would rather be a serf than a chattel slave, as would any of us given the correct information.

At any rate, the Russian serfs were emancipated in 1861, while at the same time Confederates were waging war to defend chattel slavery.

I don’t disagree with that but that’s just chattel slavery. Even though serfdom in central and and Eastern Europe had been outlawed by the mid 19th century It still existed de facto or in fact for another half century nor does it change the fact that by mid 19th most of the world was still agrarian feudal societies in which the Southern Confederacy had more in common with than the industrialized region of Northern Europe and the US at that time.

Nor did I imply that the Confederate or other Feudal States of that time should be emulated. As I succinctly stated we found a better and more egalitarian way that is infinitely superior but that does not change the fact that our way was revolutionary to the rest of the world and was certainly not the status quo for the vast majority of this planets geography at that time. I think this an important point to understand and by looking at this situation then, anachronistically, we fail to see how revolutionary our superior way now was back then. It was not the status quo for the vast majority of the human population at that time. Agrarian feudalism was.

It is important to understand how unique and revolutionary our new egalitarian system was back then to understand why others would fight and die in a counter revolution to oppose our uniquely new way of structuring a nations social structures on an egalitarian basis. It was a transcendent and unheard of revolutionary system unheard of in most of the world. It is important for us to understand that as it gives us insight as to why people back then opposed it.

 

[cancel2 2022]

Bullshit!The South loved slavery,and the power over blacks.
The USA would never let the British dictate to us how we ran our country.
They would have shut the fuck up,and bought the cotton

Bullshit, you obviously have no idea of history. After the Civil War, Britain looked to other countries like India, Brazil, Turkey and Egypt as an alternative source for raw cotton due to the uncertainly of supply. That wouldn't have happened to anything like the same extent otherwise.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

the men in battle were honorable, even if the cause unjust

As has happened all to often in history but you know what? An individual soldiers reasons for fighting a war, no matter how noble, are pretty much meaningless. What does matter is the political goals of the government they are fighting for and the Confederacies political goals were, as you stated, unjust.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

So you are saying maintain these relics and symbols so we can understand the reason why many want to see them abandoned now?

No. I’m saying do not be dismissive of the past history or view it anachronistically. My point has little to do with removing these iconographies which I went to pain to explain I support.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Why you think those statues were built?
Why you think the South quit the Union?
To keep slavery going

That was then, it's all history now. The statues only mean something when idiots dwell on the past.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

there is only one logical solution....rename all military bases with numbers......rename all public buildings with numbers.........rename all cities and states with numbers........replace all statues accordingly.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

How is trying to teach the true history of the Civil War, instead of neoconfederate revisionist mythology, removing Civil War history from our books and schools? For generations students were taught lies and fiction about the Civil War by Confederate apologist. What is wrong with fixing that with fact based history?

I would love to see one of those history books because I went to school in 50s and 60s. My history classes were very accurate on not only the war but the reasons for the war. So unless you can link to one of those southern apologist books one can only believe you are full of it.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello ThatOwlWoman,

Very much like the Holocaust museums. Good idea. Let the world see the sins and mistakes that were made, and that we won't forget them -- or repeat them.

Exactly. There is so much (false, I think,) concern for erasing history, let's make sure this blot on our history is remembered in the same responsible way the Germans have done with Nazism.

 

[BartenderElite]

If we had a Ft. Benedict Arnold - would people complain about wanting to change the name?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

So you are saying maintain these relics and symbols so we can understand the reason why many want to see them abandoned now?

No. I’m referring to the people who are writing about removing them, which I agree with removing them, of often being guilty of viewing our history anachronistically, which is always a mistake, or being dismissive of that history because our side won and our sides right.

 

[dukkha]

As has happened all to often in history but you know what? An individual soldiers reasons for fighting a war, no matter how noble, are pretty much meaningless. What does matter is the political goals of the government they are fighting for and the Confederacies political goals were, as you stated, unjust.

the monuments are varied - the men honored did great battles.
On the other hand monuments to Jefferson Davis and to "the old south" should go

 

[Mott the Hoople]

most of the statues wee erected in the 25th anniversary periods, which obviously included Jim Crow.
There are a few odious ones -like the one in Nashville I think outside a former slave market.

But Robert E Lee for ex. in Richmond is about as historical value as it can get. Natch it's coming down.

The way to do it is to appoint a national commission to evaluate each one -but the mob isn't interested in perspectives

What a crock of completely untrue bullshit. A Governor and a legislature with the popular assent of the City decided to remove that statue. Not some mob.

This isn’t a movement to hide our history this is a movement to reject neoconfederate lies and mythologies about our history that have been used for decades to promote racism, white supremacy and hatred.

These statues are coming down not because people don’t care about our history but because they have learned their history and reject the lies and mythologies about that history that these monuments represent and which have done untold harm to our nation.

 

[Geeko Sportivo]

Sometimes I have wondered what exactly the so called Conservatives are actually trying to conserve in this country!

I think it is clear now- they are trying to conserve WHITE SUPREMACY!

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Why? Why is it important to remember who Lee was or what his role was in the time period? What is the significance of his statue in Richmond, or anywhere for that matter?

I mean the guy was a brilliant general, but there has been a lot of brilliant generals in American History, and the vast majority never had statues erected for them nor did they fight on the other side.

Exactly. Name one other nation that has built statues to memorialize their traitors, Right?

 

[Micawber]

Debating the relative merits of serfdom versus slave. Well on the one hand....

 

[Micawber]

Exactly. Name one other nation that has built statues to memorialize their traitors, Right?

Good question. How many nations of shared language had bloody civil wars that reincorporated the defeated faction, maintained their boundaries and sovereignty
within the /a federation? I think the sample size may be small and easily distinguishable to draw the conclusion that under similar circumstances the loser
may not have been venerated in some way.

Anyway, we should not because the cause was largely slavery.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

What do you know about racist/syphilis riddled Lincoln, faggot?

I know he violated the Constitution egregiously.

So did Jefferson Davis. He not only suspended habeas corpus but in eastern Tennessee, where the majority of the population remained loyal to the United States, he had 500 news journalist and editors arrested and hanged 50 of them without trial.

 

[Mott the Hoople]

Bullshit, you obviously have no idea of history. After the Civil War, Britain looked to other countries like India, Brazil, Turkey and Egypt as an alternative source for raw cotton due to the uncertainly of supply. That wouldn't have happened to anything like the same extent otherwise.

Actually they did that quite successfully during the Civil War and not after it. The Confederate cotton embargo was one of the dumbest mistakes the Confederacy made.

 

[dukkha]

What a crock of completely untrue bullshit. A Governor and a legislature with the popular assent of the City decided to remove that statue. Not some mob.

This isn’t a movement to hide our history this is a movement to reject neoconfederate lies and mythologies about our history that have been used for decades to promote racism, white supremacy and hatred.

These statues are coming down not because people don’t care about our history but because they have learned their history and reject the lies and mythologies about that history that these monuments represent and which have done untold harm to our nation.

in that case yes -it was the exception -surely you dont claim the other 99% were removed with anything but mob rule?
That's an important point - not just rule of law- but a thoughtful process. Ideally an historical commission should be appointed to determine worth.
~~

U.S. people have "leaned their history?? ROFL..
ask anyone about "reconcilliation" or even the battle dates / significance of Gettysburg -the most famous -
i doubt it even though parts fall on the 4th of July and it turned the war
~~

Take that nonsense and sell it to a hate fill yankee, or the mob. They'll lap it up.
The "undo harm" is tearing off the old wounds for new scabs. America was at peace with its past beforehand.

White supemecists = aren't the rogue cops killing blacks -
they are powerless schmucks of no value that should be shunned

 

[Bigdog]

No. I’m saying do not be dismissive of the past history or view it anachronistically. My point has little to do with removing these iconographies which I went to pain to explain I support.

Democrats sanitizing history.

Did the Socialist Democrats take the statues down in the 60's or 70's when they supposedly traded party names with the republicans? NO.

It was republican Nikki Haley that was the first governor to take down the confedrate flag at her State capital. .

And the Democrat progressive run cities are still the crime cities. Are still the cities of police brutality, riots, murder and looting. Not the repubs.

The Democrats are still racist bigoted pukes.