Reclaiming America’s Soul

FUCK THE POLICE

911 EVERY DAY
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/opinion/24krugman.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Reclaiming America’s Soul


And there are indeed immense challenges out there: an economic crisis, a health care crisis, an environmental crisis. Isn’t revisiting the abuses of the last eight years, no matter how bad they were, a luxury we can’t afford?

No, it isn’t, because America is more than a collection of policies. We are, or at least we used to be, a nation of moral ideals. In the past, our government has sometimes done an imperfect job of upholding those ideals. But never before have our leaders so utterly betrayed everything our nation stands for. “This government does not torture people,” declared former President Bush, but it did, and all the world knows it.

And the only way we can regain our moral compass, not just for the sake of our position in the world, but for the sake of our own national conscience, is to investigate how that happened, and, if necessary, to prosecute those responsible.

What about the argument that investigating the Bush administration’s abuses will impede efforts to deal with the crises of today? Even if that were true — even if truth and justice came at a high price — that would arguably be a price we must pay: laws aren’t supposed to be enforced only when convenient. But is there any real reason to believe that the nation would pay a high price for accountability?

For example, would investigating the crimes of the Bush era really divert time and energy needed elsewhere? Let’s be concrete: whose time and energy are we talking about?

Tim Geithner, the Treasury secretary, wouldn’t be called away from his efforts to rescue the economy. Peter Orszag, the budget director, wouldn’t be called away from his efforts to reform health care. Steven Chu, the energy secretary, wouldn’t be called away from his efforts to limit climate change. Even the president needn’t, and indeed shouldn’t, be involved. All he would have to do is let the Justice Department do its job — which he’s supposed to do in any case — and not get in the way of any Congressional investigations.

I don’t know about you, but I think America is capable of uncovering the truth and enforcing the law even while it goes about its other business.

Still, you might argue — and many do — that revisiting the abuses of the Bush years would undermine the political consensus the president needs to pursue his agenda.

But the answer to that is, what political consensus? There are still, alas, a significant number of people in our political life who stand on the side of the torturers. But these are the same people who have been relentless in their efforts to block President Obama’s attempt to deal with our economic crisis and will be equally relentless in their opposition when he endeavors to deal with health care and climate change. The president cannot lose their good will, because they never offered any.

That said, there are a lot of people in Washington who weren’t allied with the torturers but would nonetheless rather not revisit what happened in the Bush years.

Some of them probably just don’t want an ugly scene; my guess is that the president, who clearly prefers visions of uplift to confrontation, is in that group. But the ugliness is already there, and pretending it isn’t won’t make it go away.

Others, I suspect, would rather not revisit those years because they don’t want to be reminded of their own sins of omission.

For the fact is that officials in the Bush administration instituted torture as a policy, misled the nation into a war they wanted to fight and, probably, tortured people in the attempt to extract “confessions” that would justify that war. And during the march to war, most of the political and media establishment looked the other way.

It’s hard, then, not to be cynical when some of the people who should have spoken out against what was happening, but didn’t, now declare that we should forget the whole era — for the sake of the country, of course.

Sorry, but what we really should do for the sake of the country is have investigations both of torture and of the march to war. These investigations should, where appropriate, be followed by prosecutions — not out of vindictiveness, but because this is a nation of laws.

We need to do this for the sake of our future. For this isn’t about looking backward, it’s about looking forward — because it’s about reclaiming America’s soul.
 
Yeah, but all's fair in love and war. I think torture is probably more useful as a tool of fear. For information, maybe not so much. But some towel headed asshole will think twice about trying shit if he KNOWS FOR A FACT he will be tortured if captured.

This is just more of Obama destroying the ability of americans to survive.
 
Yeah, but all's fair in love and war. I think torture is probably more useful as a tool of fear. For information, maybe not so much. But some towel headed asshole will think twice about trying shit if he KNOWS FOR A FACT he will be tortured if captured.

This is just more of Obama destroying the ability of americans to survive.
Torture, not so much, but enhanced interrogation techniques include water boarding? They've been shown to be very effective.

I suspect the reason why they're effective is that the prisoner knows that the condition will not stop until they fess up. Unlike, say, cutting some guys fingers off, he only has so many and knows his captors will eventually kill him to get rid of evidence and cause their own incarceration.
 
I agree. Hunt them down like the war criminals they are.


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/opinion/24krugman.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Reclaiming America’s Soul


And there are indeed immense challenges out there: an economic crisis, a health care crisis, an environmental crisis. Isn’t revisiting the abuses of the last eight years, no matter how bad they were, a luxury we can’t afford?

No, it isn’t, because America is more than a collection of policies. We are, or at least we used to be, a nation of moral ideals. In the past, our government has sometimes done an imperfect job of upholding those ideals. But never before have our leaders so utterly betrayed everything our nation stands for. “This government does not torture people,” declared former President Bush, but it did, and all the world knows it.

And the only way we can regain our moral compass, not just for the sake of our position in the world, but for the sake of our own national conscience, is to investigate how that happened, and, if necessary, to prosecute those responsible.

What about the argument that investigating the Bush administration’s abuses will impede efforts to deal with the crises of today? Even if that were true — even if truth and justice came at a high price — that would arguably be a price we must pay: laws aren’t supposed to be enforced only when convenient. But is there any real reason to believe that the nation would pay a high price for accountability?

For example, would investigating the crimes of the Bush era really divert time and energy needed elsewhere? Let’s be concrete: whose time and energy are we talking about?

Tim Geithner, the Treasury secretary, wouldn’t be called away from his efforts to rescue the economy. Peter Orszag, the budget director, wouldn’t be called away from his efforts to reform health care. Steven Chu, the energy secretary, wouldn’t be called away from his efforts to limit climate change. Even the president needn’t, and indeed shouldn’t, be involved. All he would have to do is let the Justice Department do its job — which he’s supposed to do in any case — and not get in the way of any Congressional investigations.

I don’t know about you, but I think America is capable of uncovering the truth and enforcing the law even while it goes about its other business.

Still, you might argue — and many do — that revisiting the abuses of the Bush years would undermine the political consensus the president needs to pursue his agenda.

But the answer to that is, what political consensus? There are still, alas, a significant number of people in our political life who stand on the side of the torturers. But these are the same people who have been relentless in their efforts to block President Obama’s attempt to deal with our economic crisis and will be equally relentless in their opposition when he endeavors to deal with health care and climate change. The president cannot lose their good will, because they never offered any.

That said, there are a lot of people in Washington who weren’t allied with the torturers but would nonetheless rather not revisit what happened in the Bush years.

Some of them probably just don’t want an ugly scene; my guess is that the president, who clearly prefers visions of uplift to confrontation, is in that group. But the ugliness is already there, and pretending it isn’t won’t make it go away.

Others, I suspect, would rather not revisit those years because they don’t want to be reminded of their own sins of omission.

For the fact is that officials in the Bush administration instituted torture as a policy, misled the nation into a war they wanted to fight and, probably, tortured people in the attempt to extract “confessions” that would justify that war. And during the march to war, most of the political and media establishment looked the other way.

It’s hard, then, not to be cynical when some of the people who should have spoken out against what was happening, but didn’t, now declare that we should forget the whole era — for the sake of the country, of course.

Sorry, but what we really should do for the sake of the country is have investigations both of torture and of the march to war. These investigations should, where appropriate, be followed by prosecutions — not out of vindictiveness, but because this is a nation of laws.

We need to do this for the sake of our future. For this isn’t about looking backward, it’s about looking forward — because it’s about reclaiming America’s soul.
 
It floors me what the death of a mere 3000 or so people can do to a nation. Both my grandfathers were WWII vets. They fought an enemy on both sides of the globe, that used torture, murder, starvation to defeat their enemy, us. They tortured people because of their religious beliefs or they unwillingness to march lockstep in their attempt to cleanse the world of the untermensch. When it all came to an end, there were pictures taken, where men took of their hats, or placed their hands on their hearts and they all pledged NEVER AGAIN!. That pledge was not just about KZ camps, and not just about Polish Ghetto's. The pledge was that never again would a civilized world allow a country to resort to ANY of the behaviors that the Germans engaged in. That includes subjecting people to hypothermia and high altitude experiments, operations without anesthesia and torture. Now, the children and grandchildren of veterans just like my grandfathers have forgotten the sacrifices, and forgotten the pledge. I don't care what someone might now about a bomb that might kill me or my family or yours. I don't want my government committing acts that we once prosecuted others for in my name or the name of the country and constitution that I took an oath to defend. To allow that is to allow a mark to be made on the sacrifices of our fathers and grandfathers. Franklin said that those who would trade fundamental liberties for temporary safety deserve neither, the same should be said for our civility.
 
It floors me what the death of a mere 3000 or so people can do to a nation. Both my grandfathers were WWII vets. They fought an enemy on both sides of the globe, that used torture, murder, starvation to defeat their enemy, us. They tortured people because of their religious beliefs or they unwillingness to march lockstep in their attempt to cleanse the world of the untermensch. When it all came to an end, there were pictures taken, where men took of their hats, or placed their hands on their hearts and they all pledged NEVER AGAIN!. That pledge was not just about KZ camps, and not just about Polish Ghetto's. The pledge was that never again would a civilized world allow a country to resort to ANY of the behaviors that the Germans engaged in. That includes subjecting people to hypothermia and high altitude experiments, operations without anesthesia and torture. Now, the children and grandchildren of veterans just like my grandfathers have forgotten the sacrifices, and forgotten the pledge. I don't care what someone might now about a bomb that might kill me or my family or yours. I don't want my government committing acts that we once prosecuted others for in my name or the name of the country and constitution that I took an oath to defend. To allow that is to allow a mark to be made on the sacrifices of our fathers and grandfathers. Franklin said that those who would trade fundamental liberties for temporary safety deserve neither, the same should be said for our civility.



Then you shoule be irritatated about many 'forward thinking' innovations, such as the green movement, designed to promote a mass sense of scarcity and fear to justify genocide and purposeful economic repression. This is real and it's happening now. ANd I'm not just "putting you on". This is the documented purpose of the UNESCO originators of the Green Movement.
 
america has a soul.....

LMAO

at what time in history? slavery? why don't you reclaim that watermarx, its in the heart of our country, the constitution....reclaim it watermarx
 
Actually its an excellent tactic, as you can't address the issue without contradicting yourself, which shows that your original premise is full of shit.
Do you really think that these tactics have ONLY been used on bona fide Terrorists? Do you really believe that every person the CIA and the military took into custody was guilty of something? People get taken into custody by accident all the time. If our country used any of these tactics on a SINGLE innocent, then it shames us. I'm sure it is ok with you though, ok that a few good people get used as grist to grind up the bad guys.
 
The problem with the consequentialist logic of "If it saves American lives then do it" is that you don't have a fucking crystal ball. You can't tell if it'll save American lives. You can't tell if the person your torturing even has the information you want. If you use torture on a person who's innocent, he'll tell you what you want to hear. If you use it on someone who's guilty, they'll tell you something that pleases you, which will be a lie. What you won't hear is anything useful. The "torture or Americans die" fallacy is a false dichotomy.
 
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