The Language of God

blackascoal said:
Is there some abiguity?

If you want to know how God makes a bird fly, it is written, in science.

If you want to know the genesis of of the human species, it is written in science.

None of that is in the bible, Koran, or the Torah. Religion is there. The language of Men is there.

Science and Mathematics are the languages that God speaks, and they are universal to all humankind, irrespective of nation, race, culture .. or even planet of orgin.
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Well there are many mysteries in this universe. Science can only answer the natural ones.
 
Dixie said:
Right On! Excellent observation, BAC!



I have no "ridgid, shallow, or superficial" definition of religion. I am a spiritualist, I believe there is some force or energy greater than human intelligence and beyond our limited comprehension, but I do not attempt to assign man-made labels to it, although I often refer to it as "God" because that is the common human understanding.

Our arguments have centered around the theories of evolution and the concepts of intelligent design. My position has never been, to refute evolution, or deny the possibilities regarding it. I have always maintained it is entirely possible we were intelligently designed, AND evolutionary processes have occurred. It is your position, that evolution explains origin because nothing else is plausible. It is your contention, that intelligent design is a myth, and we ultimately weren't designed at all, we simply evolved from a single-cell organism.

Whether you actually believe in God or not, is irrelevant. Your viewpoint, if you do believe in God, is illogical, because one has to consider, if there truly IS a God, it is entirely possible (and probable) that God created us, and all things we know as "life" on this planet. It is only through an Atheistic perspective, one can completely dismiss the possibility of creation.

I just thought you might be interested in this book. Because, to hear you tell it, REAL scientists simply don't subscribe to the silly notions of a Sky God. Only those who are ignorant of science could believe in an invisible divine deity. But... here's this guy... mapped the human genome... one of the most accomplished scientists of our time... a God Believer! OMG!
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Oh Dixie, you can be so asinine. Most of the scientist...again that's MOST of the scientest I know are also people of faith. You're also putting words into my mouth I never stated or even implied. So one scientist professed his beleif and awe in God. Whoooooop de do! Most scientist believe in God. What in the world is unusual about that? You're trying to paint this up as some rare or unique. Just another one of your strawmen.
 
The guy is from Virginia! And now in NC the heart of the bible belt. Of course he will say he believes in god whether he does or not.
He does like for his family to be safe and to keep working.
 
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WinterBorn said:
I can understand why you would be against anyone forcing their beliefs on others.

But why is my having spiritual beliefs a problem or a threat? I have made no suggestion that my beliefs are the only correct ones. My intelligence is no less for my beliefs.

To dismiss all spirituality just because you do not believe is another form of bigotry. There are things that we cannot explain in this world.
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I'm not forcing my beliefs on you by criticizing yours. Never has anything been said that is more ridiculous.

If my friend said to me "I believe in leprachauns!" and I said "That's ridiculous!" and he said "HOW DARE YOU FORCE YOUR BELIEFS ON ME YOU BIGOT!!!!!", that would probably be the end of our friendship. But religious people get a pass. They get a stupid little pass for their precious belief systems because we don't want to offend teh poor little babies. Well I say fuck off. If you don't want to be reasonable, be unreasonable, but I'm still calling you an idiot./
 
Religions get a lot of passes.
on catholics and child abuse.
On taxes.
On laws.
On preaching politics from the pulpit.

I live in the bible belt and If I proclaimed my atheism like Christians proclaim their religion I would be shunned , no jobs, threats, etc...

I however do none of that to Christians.
 
Mottleydude said:
Oh Dixie, you can be so asinine. Most of the scientist...again that's MOST of the scientest I know are also people of faith. You're also putting words into my mouth I never stated or even implied. So one scientist professed his beleif and awe in God. Whoooooop de do! Most scientist believe in God. What in the world is unusual about that? You're trying to paint this up as some rare or unique. Just another one of your strawmen.
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Actually, if you read what Dr. Collins writes, he says that 40% of the scientific community profess a belief in God. This means the "majority" do not. (60%) The interesting thing is, they did the survey in 1911 and in 1997, and the percentages remained about the same.

I'm not trying to paint this up to be anything other than what it is... an accomplished and devout scientist who isn't afraid to profess his faith in God.... and to contradict Whomever's argument, the dude is writing books about it, I don't think he is doing that merely to keep his family safe from Bible-thumping lynch mobs.

I just know Francis Collins is a sharp blow to the notion espoused by the "science minds" here, that believers in faith are ignorant of science, or having a scientific view is somehow 'more intelligent' than belief in God. Thread after thread is made here, by you, ib1, Waterhead, or any number of other Atheist Science Geeks, who want to take a swing at religion and faith, while proclaiming science to be "the proof" against God.
 
This is your champion?

[ame="http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xrri7_geneticist-francis-s-collins-p3_fun"]Dailymotion - Geneticist Francis S. Collins (p3) - a Funny video@@AMEPARAM@@http://www.dailymotion.com/swf/xrri7@@AMEPARAM@@xrri7[/ame]

What he presents is another take on intelligent design. He tries to wrap religion around science in a rather goofy kinda' way.

He believes in evolution, knows the bible ain't real, but claims a belief in magic.

If that's your champion so be it. But nothing changes. The bible and religion are not about facts or even common sense. It's all faith .. or in other words .. a belief in something you do not know to be true.

Religion is for broken people.
 
blackascoal said:
This is your champion?

Dailymotion - Geneticist Francis S. Collins (p3) - a Funny video

What he presents is another take on intelligent design. He tries to wrap religion around science in a rather goofy kinda' way.

He believes in evolution, knows the bible ain't real, but claims a belief in magic.

If that's your champion so be it. But nothing changes. The bible and religion are not about facts or even common sense. It's all faith .. or in other words .. a belief in something you do not know to be true.

Religion is for broken people.
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Well, he isn't "my champion" nor my hero, he's just a scientist who believes in God. He didn't even mention Intelligent Design, he is responsible for mapping the human genome, a map he says was previously only known to God. It must really just chap your nuts to hear this this brilliant scientist school you on your profound godless stupidity, huh?

The Bible, another book you've obviously not read and I have, is full of truth and wisdom. Much of how civilization and society has functioned the past 2000 years, is based on the teachings of The Bible.

All belief requires faith. If you do not know something to be absolute, it requires you to have faith in one belief or the other. You have faith there is no God because that is your belief.
 
The most amazing thing to me is the giant leap people like Dixie make. They'll make a claim like, "There may be a God behind the order of the vast universe because you can't prove otherwise." Then they'll take this HUGE unjustified leap into "and that God is the guy I read about in the Bible who knows and cares about everything I think, knows and cares about who I sleep with, and wants me to go to church every Sunday."

That's where you make yourself look really, really retarded. The leap from deism to theism is to huge for a rational person to make. The deism argument is valid on a level, but theism is phenomenally stupid.
 
ib1yysguy said:
The most amazing thing to me is the giant leap people like Dixie make. They'll make a claim like, "There may be a God behind the order of the vast universe because you can't prove otherwise." Then they'll take this HUGE unjustified leap into "and that God is the guy I read about in the Bible who knows and cares about everything I think, knows and cares about who I sleep with, and wants me to go to church every Sunday."

That's where you make yourself look really, really retarded. The leap from deism to theism is to huge for a rational person to make. The deism argument is valid on a level, but theism is phenomenally stupid.
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in dixie's defense (since you are critisizing people "like dixie", he has said repeatedly that he mostly believes in some energy/higher consciousness in this universe that he calls god. I don't think he's demonstrated to be an actual bible thumper, whether or not he may have a lot of those views in common.
 
Grind said:
in dixie's defense (since you are critisizing people "like dixie", he has said repeatedly that he mostly believes in some energy/higher consciousness in this universe that he calls god. I don't think he's demonstrated to be an actual bible thumper, whether or not he may have a lot of those views in common.
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You're a total tool if you've managed to convince yourself of that. Maybe you have forgotten the hundreds-long threads where Dixie and Maineman used to argue about who was the better Christian.
 
ib1yysguy said:
The most amazing thing to me is the giant leap people like Dixie make. They'll make a claim like, "There may be a God behind the order of the vast universe because you can't prove otherwise." Then they'll take this HUGE unjustified leap into "and that God is the guy I read about in the Bible who knows and cares about everything I think, knows and cares about who I sleep with, and wants me to go to church every Sunday."

That's where you make yourself look really, really retarded. The leap from deism to theism is to huge for a rational person to make. The deism argument is valid on a level, but theism is phenomenally stupid.
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I have never made a giant leap of any kind here, with regard to religious beliefs. I have a tolerant but tepid view of most organized religion, because I think they completely miss the point sometimes. My personal viewpoint is, your individual spirituality is between you and whatever, and I can respect that. I do take exception with people who claim to not believe in anything. To me, that is what is most phenomenally stupid.

Think about it... You are essentially saying, there is no purpose to life, there is no reason to practice morality of any kind, there are no souls, good and evil are subjective, and when we die, we are worm food. And it was all for nothing, all of the marvels of the universe, all of the profound beauty of life on our planet, without any particular purpose or reason for being. Is that what you really believe? Because if it is, you are doing well not to just put a bullet through your head, because... what the hell... not like it matters, right?

It is about the most shallow and hollow perspective and viewpoint, a person could possibly have. No, I am not a "religious nut" but damn if that isn't better than belief in nothingness. This thread was about a book by the man who mapped the human genome, have I mentioned that? Did you read about how long this mapping code is? Just to read the code letter by letter, would take 31 years. All of this is the blueprint for a human being, and I am not a geneticist, but I think it all pretty much has to be in order and accurate to work. Now, it is an Atheist contention, that this complex voluminous code of the human genome, is a product of mere chemical reaction and chance. In the words of Mr. Spock, it's highly illogical.

Our entire universe is filled with the most astonishing and amazing things, and to think that it is all without purpose, without reason, without meaning, is just not something I can accept, and I don't believe many rational people could.
 
Dixie, the fact that belief in God may dry your crying eyes and provide comfort to one who can't being himself to come to terms with grim reality says nothing about the truth of the belief. It means you're guilty of wishful thinking, which is something you cannot accuse atheists of.
 
When people have the need to believe they find ways to believe. They change religion and gawd into spirit or force or cause and then feel all comfy. In the end they can't let go and need that hope. Each night for periods of sleep we die, nothing to be afraid of but consciousness cannot easily accept death. Imagine if we did not die, would we care if there were a gawd, particularly a gawd who made a world in which so many suffer. But if they did not die then would they suffer. What would suffering become. Paradox or the Hindu rebirth to final bliss.

"This poor child of five was subjected to every possible torture by those cultivated parents. They beat her, thrashed her, kicked her for no reason till her body was one bruise. Then, they went to greater refinements of cruelty -- shut her up all night in the cold and frost in a privy, and because she didn't ask to be taken up at night (as though a child of five sleeping its angelic, sound sleep could be trained to wake and ask), they smeared her face and filled her mouth with excrement, and it was her mother, her mother did this. And that mother could sleep, hearing the poor child's groans! Can you understand why a little creature, who can't even understand what's done to her, should beat her little aching heart with her tiny fist in the dark and the cold, and weep her meek unresentful tears to dear, kind God to protect her? Do you understand that, friend and brother, you pious and humble novice? Do you understand why this infamy must be and is permitted? Without it, I am told, man could not have existed on earth, for he could not have known good and evil. Why should he know that diabolical good and evil when it costs so much? Why, the whole world of knowledge is not worth that child's prayer to dear, kind God'! I say nothing of the sufferings of grown-up people, they have eaten the apple, damn them, and the devil take them all! But these little ones! I am making you suffer, Alyosha, you are not yourself. I'll leave off if you like."

"Nevermind. I want to suffer too," muttered Alyosha.

http://www.online-literature.com/view.php/brothers_karamazov/35
 
Ive always felt that my view of sciense and religen we consistant with each other. This is nuthing new to me. It might be new to a Baptist or a Catholic but not to me!
 
ib1yysguy said:
Dixie, the fact that belief in God may dry your crying eyes and provide comfort to one who can't being himself to come to terms with grim reality says nothing about the truth of the belief. It means you're guilty of wishful thinking, which is something you cannot accuse atheists of.
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LMAO... Look around, you don't see people dropping dead or going insane because they don't believe in God. It's obviously not something humans "require" to live, but it's also apparent the phenomenon remains vibrant after all these years.

It occurs to me, Atheists are guilty of the same "wishful thinking" just from the opposite perspective. If God can't be proved or disproved, then it requires faith to believe and it requires faith to not believe. The "truth" of either belief is unknown, that is why it requires "faith." You have faith that God doesn't exist, you can't prove it, you simply believe in your faith.

Now let's think a bit about what you just said. Have you ever stopped and asked yourself WHY belief in a God seems to "comfort" and "dry your eyes" when times are rough? Seems like a mighty powerful result for something that isn't real. We can observe those who have a story, the people who have been to the dark side, lived as Atheists just like you, and completely lost control of their lives and almost died, only to find God and turn their lives around. These are called "testimonials" and there are literally millions of people who have one. They will readily admit, if it weren't for the grace of God, they would have died. They are not a bit ashamed to admit that God saved them and changed their lives, and nothing else could have.

Is this just mass delusion? And if it is some form of mass delusion, what is the cause? Why do humans have such a delusion, over and over and over again for as far back as history goes? Damn if it doesn't almost seem like this delusion is something important to man, it hasn't made its way to the dustheap of superstition, human spirituality is as strong as ever. WHYYYY?
 
"Is this just mass delusion? And if it is some form of mass delusion, what is the cause? Why do humans have such a delusion, over and over and over again for as far back as history goes? Damn if it doesn't almost seem like this delusion is something important to man, it hasn't made its way to the dustheap of superstition, human spirituality is as strong as ever. WHYYYY? "


Here is your answer:

"Our entire universe is filled with the most astonishing and amazing things, and to think that it is all without purpose, without reason, without meaning, is just not something I can accept, and I don't believe many rational people could. "
 
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