If Iraq was a Mistake, Why are We Still There?
- Thread starter signalmankenneth
- Start date
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
errr I haven't read your link yet but that's kinda why they call it a quagmire. Quagmire's are hard to get out of. There are three main reasons why we will be in Iraq for a long time to come, regardless of who's in office.
#1. Pandora's box was opened when we invaded or, as Colin Powell states, "Pottery Barn Rules". You break it, you own it. We now own Iraq till we fix it and, as we've seen, it's a mess.
#2. We now have strategic interest, namely oil, that we will attempt to protect and preserve for US national interest.
#3. Leaving Iraq with an unstable government and political systems would create a power vacuum that could allow foreign powers that have interest which are hostile to US interest, such as, Syria and Iran to invade or influence Iraq to the detriment of US interest.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
What a complete and utter load of crap! This article is nothing more than a fluffed up excuse for why your president continues to send troops to Iraq. He can't abandon the war like he promised, because we are obligated now, and we have commitments to allies. This article tells us why Iraq was an immoral mistake, but then goes on to inform us of why we must stay in Iraq because it's the right thing to do! It's just amazing how convoluted pinheads can get, when they are trying to justify their hypocrisy!
One of the worst mistakes of the Bush Administration, was "making the case" for war based on poor intelligence data. There were a plethora of reasons why we had to act in Iraq, and why it was best not to wait around. All of those reasons are immediately cast aside, because the Bush Administration put all their eggs in the WMD basket, so when that fell apart, discrediting the war became simple. Pinheads haven't shut up since.
Let's start by examining the central false charge, that the Bush Administration fabricated lies and deceptions to take us to war. This is not only false, but it has been reviewed by committees, examined by courts, and critiqued by experts. There was no lie, and no deception. At best, there was faulty intelligence, which is the case with about 99% of all intelligence. With the internet, and instant access to public records, why in the hell would an Administration think they could fabricate lies and deceptions for something as important as war? It just makes no sense, because they would have had to have known the lies and deceptions would be revealed. Not even Bush is that stupid.
They told us what they believed to be true, based on intelligence they believed to be accurate at the time. Their mistake was placing such an emphasis on the WMD's, which was really a secondary issue. Among the intelligence data that wasn't wrong, is the documentation of as many as eight meetings between alQaeda and Iraq officials. These meetings took place, there is no disputing this, it is a fact of the matter. However, this bit of accurate intelligence is bundled with the inaccurate intelligence, and it is all tossed in the dumpster, or classified as "lies and deceptions."
The guy who wrote this may have a PhD, but it only goes to show, stupid people can accomplish all kinds of educational success today in America! Particularly annoying, is his false logic which makes "insurgents" into "justified combatants" with seamless effort. It may be valid, if the insurgents we are facing in Iraq, were legitimate Iraqi citizens who were fighting to liberate their country from our oppression. That is not the case. The insurgents are a combination of former Ba'ath Party members, who had the good life under Saddam and want that back, and alQaeda terrorists, who envisioned Iraq as a future base of operations. They do not represent the interest of the citizens of Iraq, 80% of which, are participating in the new democracy and renouncing the insurgents.
One of the worst mistakes of the Bush Administration, was "making the case" for war based on poor intelligence data. There were a plethora of reasons why we had to act in Iraq, and why it was best not to wait around. All of those reasons are immediately cast aside, because the Bush Administration put all their eggs in the WMD basket, so when that fell apart, discrediting the war became simple. Pinheads haven't shut up since.
Let's start by examining the central false charge, that the Bush Administration fabricated lies and deceptions to take us to war. This is not only false, but it has been reviewed by committees, examined by courts, and critiqued by experts. There was no lie, and no deception. At best, there was faulty intelligence, which is the case with about 99% of all intelligence. With the internet, and instant access to public records, why in the hell would an Administration think they could fabricate lies and deceptions for something as important as war? It just makes no sense, because they would have had to have known the lies and deceptions would be revealed. Not even Bush is that stupid.
They told us what they believed to be true, based on intelligence they believed to be accurate at the time. Their mistake was placing such an emphasis on the WMD's, which was really a secondary issue. Among the intelligence data that wasn't wrong, is the documentation of as many as eight meetings between alQaeda and Iraq officials. These meetings took place, there is no disputing this, it is a fact of the matter. However, this bit of accurate intelligence is bundled with the inaccurate intelligence, and it is all tossed in the dumpster, or classified as "lies and deceptions."
The guy who wrote this may have a PhD, but it only goes to show, stupid people can accomplish all kinds of educational success today in America! Particularly annoying, is his false logic which makes "insurgents" into "justified combatants" with seamless effort. It may be valid, if the insurgents we are facing in Iraq, were legitimate Iraqi citizens who were fighting to liberate their country from our oppression. That is not the case. The insurgents are a combination of former Ba'ath Party members, who had the good life under Saddam and want that back, and alQaeda terrorists, who envisioned Iraq as a future base of operations. They do not represent the interest of the citizens of Iraq, 80% of which, are participating in the new democracy and renouncing the insurgents.
"Let's start by examining the central false charge, that the Bush Administration fabricated lies and deceptions to take us to war. This is not only false, but it has been reviewed by committees, examined by courts, and critiqued by experts. There was no lie, and no deception"
THAT is a lie. The Senate investigated this, and - based on testimony & evidence from such sources as Paul O'Neil, Colin Powell's staff, British intelligence, Paul Wolfowicz, et al. - concluded that the administration DID manipulate the intel.
Get your facts straight.
THAT is a lie. The Senate investigated this, and - based on testimony & evidence from such sources as Paul O'Neil, Colin Powell's staff, British intelligence, Paul Wolfowicz, et al. - concluded that the administration DID manipulate the intel.
Get your facts straight.
Sammy Jankis
Was it me?
Propaganda of the military industrial complex, to convince good liberals to join the killing machine. "At least it's still anti-bush, so it must be right" Simplistic morons.
Any of you who thought obama was different need to slap yourselves.
Any of you who thought obama was different need to slap yourselves.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Just what the fuck do you mean by "manipulate intel?" They either LIED and DECEIVED or they didn't! You want to claim, that since the administration didn't make a case AGAINST war, the case they made FOR it was manipulative. Here is something to consider... A good reason can always be found, NOT to fight a war!
As for the US and British reports, we can go pull the text if you like, BOTH concluded that neither Tony Blair or the Bush Administration did anything deceptive or misleading. Much of the blame was cast on the CIA and our faulty intelligence. Get YOUR facts straight and STOP LYING!
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zappasguitar
Well-known member
The FACTS are that the Bush admin CHERRY PICKED intel which supported the decision they had already made. Any intel which didn't support the conclusions they wished to reach was ignored.
charver
You lookin' at my pint?
Would you believe it?
The British government did exactly the same thing. I mean, what are the chances of that happening? It must be at least 1 in ...1.
You must know what it means to "manipulate intel." They cherrypicked, plain & simple. Colin Powell's aide said he was given a chinese menu of intel & told to take what would bolster the case for war. British intelligence said that the intel was being "fixed around the policy."
Don't be naive. Don't be stupid. They made a decision to go to war, and then scraped for everything they could that would reinforce that decision, ignoring the rest or any evidence that contradicted what they were looking for.
Manipulating the intel is, by its very nature, "deception." It is impossible to argue otherwise.
As for me, I want a President who will bend over backwards looking for reasons NOT to go to war; not one who is only interested in rushing to war on whatever he can find, as part of some grand ego trip.
Mott the Hoople
Sweet Jane
OH God Oncie. YOu can't be that hopeless of a wingnut. At best the Bush administration out and out right lied about Iraq and at worst they mislead the American Public. If you can't accept that central fact, you have nothing productive to add to this conversation.
Whomever
uscitizen alternate login
Bush and Cheney should both be waterboarded to get the truth. After all many American lives were lost and more will be.
Remember if it will save American lives.
And after all they both said it is not torture.
Just a friendly little drinking up the nose session among friends.
Remember if it will save American lives.
And after all they both said it is not torture.
Just a friendly little drinking up the nose session among friends.
C
Cancel5
Guest
Ah, once an apologist, always an apologist.
blackascoal
The Force is With Me
Everybody dancing .. nobody looking in the mirror.
America is still in Iraq because the business of American business is war. America is in the business of war.
Iraq was a failure on many levels, but in business terms it was a runaway success for a host of American business, not the least of which were the energy corporations who made more money during Iraq than any corporations in the history of Man.
All the bullshit facade about "security" and "freedom" and "the American way of life" are just buzzwords that trigger the mindfuck programming of an invented and easily controlled people.
WE are the world's biggest arms dealer and the military industrial complex in America is exactly what Eisenhower warned against in his farewell address to the nation.
"A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."
The missing ingredient in Eisenhower's admonition is the "alert and knowledgeable citizenry" he knew would be required.
Let's see the hands of all those who thought Obama would NOT raise the defense budget?
America is still in Iraq because the business of American business is war. America is in the business of war.
Iraq was a failure on many levels, but in business terms it was a runaway success for a host of American business, not the least of which were the energy corporations who made more money during Iraq than any corporations in the history of Man.
All the bullshit facade about "security" and "freedom" and "the American way of life" are just buzzwords that trigger the mindfuck programming of an invented and easily controlled people.
WE are the world's biggest arms dealer and the military industrial complex in America is exactly what Eisenhower warned against in his farewell address to the nation.
"A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."
The missing ingredient in Eisenhower's admonition is the "alert and knowledgeable citizenry" he knew would be required.
Let's see the hands of all those who thought Obama would NOT raise the defense budget?
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